• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What's up with God and death?

dust1n

Zindīq
It's generally estimated that 90%-95% of all species to have existed are extinct. A large portion of this extinction occurred before humans even existed.

Now, I don't know about your particular nature with god and godettes and the ilk, but whats up nature being particularly brutal, and if your god created nature or is nature, then I'd like to know his/her/its fascination with killing things off.

Thanks.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Extinction

John Baez

April 8, 2006



Phillip and Donald Levin estimate that right now one species is going extinct every 20 minutes, and that half of bird and mammal species will be gone in 200 to 300 years. Richard Leakey estimates a loss of between 50,000 and 100,000 species a year, and says that only during the Big Five mass extinctions was the rate comparably high. E. O. Wilson gives a similar estimate. In his book, Michael Benton reviews the sources of uncertainty and makes an estimate of his own: given that there are probably somewhere between 20 and 100 million species in total, he estimates an extinction rate of between 5,000 and 25,000 species per year. This means between 14 and 70 species wiped out per day.

Skeptics find these numbers alarmist. For example, in Chapter 23 of this book:

  • Bjørn Lomborg, The Skeptical Environmentalist: Measuring the Real State of the World, Cambridge U. Press, Cambridge, 2001.
the author does his best to tear apart Leakey and Wilson's estimates. Wilson has issued a convincing rebuttal. However, the really interesting thing is that Lomborg's own estimates also point to a high extinction rate! He estimates that over the next 50 years, about 0.7 percent of all species will go extinct. This may not sound like much until you realize how short 50 years is on a geological time scale. To put things in perspective, note that given Lomborg's estimate that there are between 10 and 80 million species total, a loss of .7 percent of all species would mean between 70,000 and 560,000 extinctions in the next 50 years. This amounts to 1,200 and 10,000 per year, or between 4 and 30 a day - the same order of magnitude as what Benton suggests! Perhaps more to the point, Lomborg says the current extinction rate is about 1500 times the natural background rate.

In short, despite plenty of bickering, there seems to be agreement that humans are causing a vastly elevated extinction rate.

And there's also lots of other data pointing to a massive human-caused disruption of the biosphere. One in eight plant species are in danger of extinction within the next 30 years, according to the IUCN Red List of threatened species, along with one in eight bird species and a quarter of all mammals. The Audubon Society reports that 30% of North American songbird species are in significant decline. Worldwide populations of frogs and other amphibians have been declining drastically, and a recent detailed study shows that of 5743 known species of amphibians recorded in the last couple of centuries, 34 are now extinct, while another 122 are probably extinct: they can no longer be found. Even worse, of these 122 missing species, 113 have disappeared since 1980!

In the oceans, 90% of all large fish have disappeared in the last half century, thanks to overfishing. We see the spread of dead zones near the mouths of rivers, where nutrients from fertilizer create blooms of plankton leading to low-oxygen water where few organisms can survive. Coral reefs are becoming unhealthy around the world, with a strong upswing in the bleaching of reefs since the 1970s. "Bleaching" is the loss of algae called zooxanthellae which live in coral and give it its color. It seems to be caused by higher water temperatures due to global warming.

extinction
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Great extinctions seem associated with the eventual rise of more complex life forms. For instance, the extinction of the dinosaurs eventually resulted in us. So it's quite obvious that we are creating an extinction event that will result in the realization of God's true goal for our planet -- the rise of our successor species.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Great extinctions seem associated with the eventual rise of more complex life forms. For instance, the extinction of the dinosaurs eventually resulted in us. So it's quite obvious that we are creating an extinction event that will result in the realization of God's true goal for our planet -- the rise of our successor species.
but... wait! The Kardashians are already here!

:run:
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Great extinctions seem associated with the eventual rise of more complex life forms. For instance, the extinction of the dinosaurs eventually resulted in us. So it's quite obvious that we are creating an extinction event that will result in the realization of God's true goal for our planet -- the rise of our successor species.

Interestingly enough, I'm reading about a 1,900 page suicide note/philosophical treatise, that is actually getting at a quite similar notion regarding "post-biological evolution." God just may have been a symbol for humanity to overcome nature and biology, and set a goal point for humanity to push towards, and in the future we may create the God-AI that increases its own coding to the fullest potential, and possibly in the Singularity where our minds have been implanted into a computer, and biological ceases to exist.

Of course, this is all put a lot more elegantly.

It still seems strange to me that god had to create "in waves" of death in order to achieve the desired results.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
To sit here and have life, and awareness... Transformation is a better word than death.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
It's generally estimated that 90%-95% of all species to have existed are extinct. A large portion of this extinction occurred before humans even existed.

Now, I don't know about your particular nature with god and godettes and the ilk, but whats up nature being particularly brutal, and if your god created nature or is nature, then I'd like to know his/her/its fascination with killing things off.

Thanks.

The physical universe is more of a temporary prison; it is also the origin of your existence in general, you must walk the physical world beside other minds in order to develop a mind and a soul.

There is a dualistic thing going on here; the physical world (impermanence, limited, dullness) and the spiritual world (permanent, unchanging, infinite, perfection).

All things in the physical universe are unique because; the universe has to work from within, it depends on the resources that it already has, for there is nowhere exterior to find them.

Because of the dependence on itself, all things remain impermanent, but that doesn't mean it eliminates them, instead it recycles the material into itself again so that one body can become hundreds. If changing were to be an absent process in the universe, all things would be set the way they are, up until the breaking point of the universe that cannot support itself without demolishing something in order to reconstruct the materials.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
The physical universe is more of a temporary prison; it is also the origin of your existence in general, you must walk the physical world beside other minds in order to develop a mind and a soul.

There is a dualistic thing going on here; the physical world (impermanence, limited, dullness) and the spiritual world (permanent, unchanging, infinite, perfection).

All things in the physical universe are unique because; the universe has to work from within, it depends on the resources that it already has, for there is nowhere exterior to find them.

Because of the dependence on itself, all things remain impermanent, but that doesn't mean it eliminates them, instead it recycles the material into itself again so that one body can become hundreds. If changing were to be an absent process in the universe, all things would be set the way they are, up until the breaking point of the universe that cannot support itself without demolishing something in order to reconstruct the materials.

Okay...

So, I think I saw a reference to an afterlife with a soul going about, is that right? I'm not sure what the rest had to do with death.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Okay...

So, I think I saw a reference to an afterlife with a soul going about, is that right? I'm not sure what the rest had to do with death.

What I mean is, it isn't a fascination, it's simply required in a bounded, finite universe, designed as a prison for discipline compared to the working higher. In the physical world, all objects will end and be recycled into an entirely new body of something, simply because the universe cannot gather resources from any place rather than within itself.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It still seems strange to me that god had to create "in waves" of death in order to achieve the desired results.

Well, if you want to look at "death" in a very broad sense -- in the sense of being an ending -- then death is often enough also a beginning; a necessary precursor to the next thing to come along.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
What about it?



Transformation from living to non-living is one way to phrase it.

Not much else to say. It's amazing to be here.. And to see how so much diversity, within time and space, originated from just a single source. I'm fascinated by my own consciousness. I'm able to know myself, but only know fractions of myself as I grow and learn, and experience. It's pretty creepy, to me.

Looking in the mirror is creepy.. Knowing other people is creepy. It's all very amazingly creepy.


I feel a relief knowing that existence itself cannot cease, and that we will all in fact continue existing. Nothing is wasted. We may not retain our original configurations, or memories, or anything- but we continue servicing the truths of only one source.. And whatever we do, whenever we do it, it's always a part of the eternal.
 
Last edited:

dust1n

Zindīq
What I mean is, it isn't a fascination, it's simply required in a bounded, finite universe, designed as a prison for discipline compared to the working higher. In the physical world, all objects will end and be recycled into an entirely new body of something, simply because the universe cannot gather resources from any place rather than within itself.

Speaking of the universe, it will eventually spread out so thin that no matter will be able to exist, at least in any meaningful way. So, eventually this recycling will cease to continue. The physical world will cease to exist.

But I'm still not sure what this has to do with god and death. And how do you know so much about what the universe was designed for?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Well, if you want to look at "death" in a very broad sense -- in the sense of being an ending -- then death is often enough also a beginning; a necessary precursor to the next thing to come along.

Yes, at the expense of the prior thing. And the next thing will all get its doom at some point.

Unless, we're in a computer. Think about it, Sunny.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Not much else to say. It's amazing to be here.. And to see how so much diversity, within time and space, originated from just a single source. I'm fascinated by my own consciousness. I'm able to know myself, but only know fractions of myself as I grow and learn, and experience. It's pretty creepy, to me.

Looking in the mirror is creepy.. Knowing other people is creepy. It's all very amazingly creepy.

I feel a relief knowing that existence itself cannot cease, and that we will all in fact continue existing. Nothing is wasted. We may not retain our original configurations, or memories, or anything- but we continue servicing the truths of only one source.. And whatever we do, whenever we do it, it's always a part of the eternal.

I'm not sure I like servicing the truths of the only one source, considering my death will lead to me not existing in but always being a part of the eternal.

Is this a metaphor for God and Heaven, btw?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Speaking of the universe, it will eventually spread out so thin that no matter will be able to exist, at least in any meaningful way. So, eventually this recycling will cease to continue. The physical world will cease to exist.

Something can come from nothing, and therefore destroying nothingness simply buy existing. To see nothing to come from something would be extremely hard to believe.

Even so, and I've heard a theory similar to that, however it was more related to temperature and was entirely theoretical. However, I admit I'm not that much into science to study newly presented hypotheses or theories (especially began to get dull with Stephen Hawking and especially Michio Kaku), I'm not going to agree to it, but I'm not going to disagree right away. That's not important though, because if this is to be true, it further proves that all things come to an end in the physical.

But I'm still not sure what this has to do with god and death. And how do you know so much about what the universe was designed for?

I don't, nobody does. However, I'm referencing it from my own personal beliefs, not claiming anything objective, just explaining how I see it.

The way it relates to death: All things end (death) because that's simply a property of the physical, it's not that God is fascinated by it as you said in the OP.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I'm not sure I like servicing the truths of the only one source, considering my death will lead to me not existing in but always being a part of the eternal.

Is this a metaphor for God and Heaven, btw?

I'm sure you've liked some truths, and disliked others. So have I.

Is it necessarily about God and Heaven? No. Those terms don't resonate with certain people, and they're not necessary.
 

KMGC

Member
Taoism states that all life forms but not the consciousnesses within them are one universal energy created by God, which may in some way be superior to God. I personally don't believe that it is, but you could certainly say that while an unaware consciousness becomes upset when a fellow unaware consciousness dies, there is nothing to be said about. In all likelihood that mind has become one with the Tao, aka the energy of form, and can express in ways that make our expressions seem minute.
 
Top