What's up with God and death?

[dust1n]

You mean besides the NSA computers?

Well, the data has to start somewhere, I suppose in a couple of generations, we will be on the crux of an AI capable of altering its own source code

Would it make a difference if we were?

Heh... that's a good question. Presumably, it would be like heaven as humans have always wanted it, and a much long mortality. Presumably, it would be what biological existence ought to be, instead of what it is. Working off a lot of assumptions here though; the main being that a much advanced AI would come to any conclusion that involved being kind to humans.

 

[Penumbra]

Not even necessarily that. Something is only a "big deal" if some particular human decides to attribute that judgement to what has occurred. I mean, I'll fully admit that I regard the current mass extinction as a "big deal" because of my personal judgements, values, and/or expectations. Devoid of any human judgements I slap onto events, things simply are. Every so often I like to remind myself of that before I start foaming at the mouth too bad over how my species is slamming the biosphere into the sixth mass extinction.

Yeah, so far humans, with possible assistance from an ice age not too long ago, are responsible for a minor extinction event which is still ongoing. Who knows, maybe it'll be a major one. It would score points for originality at least- a species doing it rather than natural planetary climate change or cosmological events.

Also, it doesn't look to me like the OP judged any gods. Many theists have in their mind that their chosen deity or deities care for them in some way. Mass extinction events or things like that may show otherwise, and so asking about death is valid. It's like asking, "are your values and your god's values anywhere close to each other?"

 

[Quintessence]

Also, it doesn't look to me like the OP judged any gods. Many theists have in their mind that their chosen deity or deities care for them in some way. Mass extinction events or things like that may show otherwise, and so asking about death is valid. It's like asking, "are your values and your god's values anywhere close to each other?"

Pardon, but it reads like a judgement of the gods to me to say that they are collectively brutal and have a sadistic fascination with killing things because mass extinctions happen. As a polytheist, I recognize and honor gods that are associated with these qualities, but not all the gods bear such qualities; nor do I ever presume the gods "care" about me (to me, this is akin to assuming every human on the planet cares about me in spite of the fact that they have no idea I even exist; or, more amusingly, that inorganic matter is capable of caring in the first place).

The question you ask here at the end here is interesting though, but I'm not sure that is what the OP was getting at. For that question, I would then ask "which one of the gods" and then "does it even have values" and finally "do I even know what those values are if it has them?" For most, the answer to the second question ends up being "no" anyway, making the inquiry moot. I can symbolically interpret them as embodying certain values, but they're not persons and don't have "values" in the sense that I think you might mean.

Illustrative example: Let's pick Sun Spirit as the god in question. Just the sun to the rest of you. Does the sun's values match mine? Huhwut? The sun can have values?

 

[George-ananda]

Talking about mass extinction events being no big deal is easy as long as we weren't there!

How about mass extinction as a making way for species more adapted to the changed environment. The only thing constant is change. Physical bodies and species are temporary and I believe there is a greater wisdom behind that fact.

 

[Penumbra]

Pardon, but it reads like a judgement of the gods to me to say that they are collectively brutal and have a sadistic fascination with killing things because mass extinctions happen.

Is being brutal and sadistic bad?

As a polytheist, I recognize and honor gods that are associated with these qualities, but not all the gods bear such qualities; nor do I ever presume the gods "care" about me (to me, this is akin to assuming every human on the planet cares about me in spite of the fact that they have no idea I even exist;

You surely must recognize that most or many people do, though.

Was the thread directed primarily to the pagans with gods that don't know they exist on this forum? Probably not. It's valuable of course to point out that your gods, in your worldview, don't know you, or aren't bothered by death, etc.

or, more amusingly, that inorganic matter is capable of caring in the first place).

Are your gods made of inorganic matter? Synonymous with organic matter?

The question you ask here at the end here is interesting though, but I'm not sure that is what the OP was getting at. For that question, I would then ask "which one of the gods" and then "does it even have values" and finally "do I even know what those values are if it has them?" For most, the answer to the second question ends up being "no" anyway, making the inquiry moot. I can symbolically interpret them as embodying certain values, but they're not persons and don't have "values" in the sense that I think you might mean.

Illustrative example: Let's pick Sun Spirit as the god in question. Just the sun to the rest of you. Does the sun's values match mine? Huhwut? The sun can have values?

Personally I'd just call it the sun rather than the sun spirit, then.

Many people, when they use a word "god", imply a will. I can call a cement brick a god, but then I'd be using the term in a different way than most other people.

So, if someone asks about the value of gods, it would make little sense for me to say, "Lol why would a brick have values?"

 

[Penumbra]

How about mass extinction as a making way for species more adapted to the changed environment. The only thing constant is change. Physical bodies and species are temporary and I believe there is a greater wisdom behind that fact.

Where do you believe life on earth is heading?

 

[George-ananda]

Where do you believe life on earth is heading?

Honestly, that question is beyond me.

Though I of course support the efforts to mitigate humanity's effect on the planet.

 

[nazz]

It's generally estimated that 90%-95% of all species to have existed are extinct. A large portion of this extinction occurred before humans even existed.

Now, I don't know about your particular nature with god and godettes and the ilk, but whats up nature being particularly brutal, and if your god created nature or is nature, then I'd like to know his/her/its fascination with killing things off.

Thanks.

My stock answer is Emanationism :

Emanationism is an idea in the cosmology or cosmogony of certain religious or philosophical systems. Emanation, from the Latin emanare meaning "to flow from" or "to pour forth or out of", is the mode by which all things are derived from the First Reality, or Principle. All things are derived from the first reality or perfect God by steps of degradation to lesser degrees of the first reality or God, and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine. Emanationism is a transcendent principle from which everything is derived, and is opposed to both Creationism (wherein the universe is created by a sentient God who is separate from creation) and materialism (which posits no underlying subjective and/or ontological nature behind phenomena being immanent).

​

If this is too general I can elaborate

 

[George-ananda]

My stock answer is Emanationism :

Emanationism is an idea in the cosmology or cosmogony of certain religious or philosophical systems. Emanation, from the Latin emanare meaning "to flow from" or "to pour forth or out of", is the mode by which all things are derived from the First Reality, or Principle. All things are derived from the first reality or perfect God by steps of degradation to lesser degrees of the first reality or God, and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine. Emanationism is a transcendent principle from which everything is derived, and is opposed to both Creationism (wherein the universe is created by a sentient God who is separate from creation) and materialism (which posits no underlying subjective and/or ontological nature behind phenomena being immanent).

​

If this is too general I can elaborate

This is good stuff and I learned a new word today 'Emanationism' (and my spell-check doesn't even recognize it).

It's a more sophisticated description of what I was getting at in my previous post where I said: My thought is life creation on earth is orchestrated by gods/nature-spirits/angels/devas/whatever-term. Their intelligence and abilities are far beyond us but not infinite. Creating, improving, modifying is always going on.

 

[nazz]

This is good stuff and I learned a new word today 'Emanationism' (and my spell-check doesn't even recognize it).

It's a more sophisticated description of what I was getting at in my previous post where I said: My thought is life creation on earth is orchestrated by gods/nature-spirits/angels/devas/whatever-term. Their intelligence and abilities are far beyond us but not infinite. Creating, improving, modifying is always going on.

Hmm, I'm not sure that is the same thing. Emanation is usually conceived of as an unconscious, inevitable process. Just as the sun does not consciously decided to emanate its rays. It just happens and must happen. But I guess one could propose a conscious form of emanation.

 

[George-ananda]

Hmm, I'm not sure that is the same thing. Emanation is usually conceived of as an unconscious, inevitable process. Just as the sun does not consciously decided to emanate its rays. It just happens and must happen. But I guess one could propose a conscious form of emanation.

Hmm, notice that at this point in the definition it is talking about 'beings':

and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine.

I take 'beings' to be conscious entities like angels/nature-spirits. They are above the physical plane but not absolute God/Brahman.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

In order to create, you must destroy.

 

[nazz]

Hmm, notice that at this point in the definition it is talking about 'beings':

and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine.

I take 'beings' to be conscious entities like angels/nature-spirits. They are above the physical plane but not absolute God/Brahman.

Yes, that's correct. And those beings can create things. So there can be a little of both involved.

 

[KMGC]

It should be pretty evident that even from an atheist perspective, where the dimension generated itself, there could be parallel dimensions... thusly, no animals have truly gone extinct, as they were preserved in those parallel dimensions.

 

[dust1n]

I'm sure you've liked some truths, and disliked others. So have I.

Is it necessarily about God and Heaven? No. Those terms don't resonate with certain people, and they're not necessary.

Hmm.. maybe I'm not understanding well. Would it be accurate to say that you think the value of the tiny portion of living you've gotten voids all concerns you may have about death?

 

[dust1n]

Something can come from nothing, and therefore destroying nothingness simply buy existing. To see nothing to come from something would be extremely hard to believe.

Even so, and I've heard a theory similar to that, however it was more related to temperature and was entirely theoretical. However, I admit I'm not that much into science to study newly presented hypotheses or theories (especially began to get dull with Stephen Hawking and especially Michio Kaku), I'm not going to agree to it, but I'm not going to disagree right away. That's not important though, because if this is to be true, it further proves that all things come to an end in the physical.

Well, it's 100 trillion years away. There are unknown variables that determine various length, and who knows, things can act very different when one piece of information is missing.

That being said, it does appear all physical things come to an end. I'm not sure any other things existed.

I don't, nobody does. However, I'm referencing it from my own personal beliefs, not claiming anything objective, just explaining how I see it.

The way it relates to death: All things end (death) because that's simply a property of the physical, it's not that God is fascinated by it as you said in the OP.

It may be that all physical material come to an end of some sort, but if there is a presumably God like anything about the cause or the nature of physical universe, then this entity chose to create the physical world as such, or was incapable of creating it as anything other than what it is, which comes with its own mess of problems.

I see no problem with a god-less existence ending in nothing, in death, in misery. I can reconcile that. What I'm curious about though as how various people's Gods reconcile this.

 

[dust1n]

Old forms of nature dissolve to make new forms of nature.
Brutality is subjective, nature itself doesn't have any such distinctions.

Nature doesn't, but does your deity?

 

[dust1n]

I dont see nature as being some sado masocist wanting to hurt or kill itself. If anything life seems to strive to continue but mostly fails.

I would agree the life strives and mostly fails, but the circumstances that brought about their demise are wholly out of their control. I don't see nature as having intentions. But if there is a deity involved, I don't quite get the reverence of nature or god.

 

[dust1n]

His fascination with killing things off is just a Process to create humans.
Like... its impossible to make butter from milk without a process in between, Similarly.. it was impossible to make humans without a process in between.

Well, "his" process is more than enough of long and broad to understand, So don't worry its all just done for the sake of humans.. loll

What, so this process of death to living things has stopped for humans?

 

[dust1n]

My thought is life creation on earth is orchestrated by gods/nature-spirits/angels/devas/whatever-term. Their intelligence and abilities are far beyond us but not infinite. Creating, improving, modifying is always going on.

Interesting. So these things mess up sometimes and end up with sick children, and can't create the appropriate conditions and resources for humanity? So why are they revered again? It seems like humans are on the cusp on handling human biology better these people, since doctors go about fixing their mistakes.