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whats your beef with brexit?

Notanumber

A Free Man
We weren't given a vote on no-deal, as even Gove has said. We were given the chance to vote on leaving because the PM at the time was an arrogant fool who thought he could settle a Tory party dispute. It was always a stupid thing to put to a simple in/out vote - doubly so when nobody had worked out what leave would mean.

Richard Dawkins put it well:

In 2016 our then Prime Minister David Cameron caved in to pressure from his backbenchers to hold a referendum on British membership of the EU. This was a question of immense complexity involving sophisticated economic ramifications, the full extent of which became only too apparent later in the year when prodigal regiments of lawyers and civil servants had to be employed to cope with the administrative and legal load. If ever there was a matter for lengthy parliamentary debate and cabinet discussion heavily informed by advice from highly qualified experts, it was membership of the EU. Could there be a question less suited to a single plebiscite decision? And yet we were told to mistrust experts (‘You, the voter, are the expert here’) by politicians who presumably would demand an expert surgeon to remove their appendix or an expert pilot to fly their plane. So the decision was handed over to non-experts like me, even people whose stated motives for voting included ‘Well, it’s nice to have a change,’ and ‘Well, I preferred the old blue passport to the European purple one.’ For the sake of short-term political manoeuvring within his own party, David Cameron played Russian roulette with the long-term future of his country, of Europe, even of the world.

And so, to the precautionary principle. The referendum was about a major change, a political revolution whose pervasive effects would persist for decades if not longer. A huge constitutional change, the sort of change where, if ever, the precautionary principle should have been paramount. When it comes to constitutional amendments, the United States requires a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress followed by ratification by three-quarters of the state legislatures. Arguably that bar is set a bit too high, but the principle is sound. David Cameron’s referendum, by contrast, asked for only a simple majority on a single yes/no question. Did it not occur to him that so radical a constitutional step might merit stipulation of a two-thirds majority? Or at least 60 per cent? Perhaps a minimum voter turnout to make sure such a major decision was not taken by a minority of the electorate? Maybe a second vote, a fortnight later, to make sure the populace really meant it? Or a second round a year later, when the terms and consequences of withdrawal had become at least minimally apparent? But no, all Cameron demanded was anything over 50 per cent in a single yes/no vote, at a time when opinion polls were yo-yo-ing up and down and the likely result was changing day by day. It is said that a leftover statute of British common law stipulates that ‘no idiot shall be admitted to parliament’. You’d think at least the stricture might apply to Prime Ministers.
From: Dawkins, R (2017). Science in the Soul: Selected Writings of a Passionate Rationalist. Transworld. Kindle Edition.


We had to vote to leave but were arrogantly corralled into it when we joined without public consent.

Now they arrogantly want to overturn our decision.

They need to think again if they think that they can keep taking the public for granted.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Don’t say you are supporting the UN as well as the EU now. The UN should demand nothing. Just like the EU, they have ideas above their station.

And yet another straw man. We are discussing your hypocrisy here, not my duty to the world i live in

Should and does are two separate things. We are party to the UN for a reason. Protection, when it is needed they demand of it members what needs to be done.

Perhaps you prefer the slaughter that would and does occur without their presence.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
We had to vote to leave but were arrogantly corralled into it when we joined without public consent.

We had a referendum in 1975. In any case, either this sort of constitutional change needs a fixed process, like a referendum with some threshold (an only when we know what the choices are) or some super-majority in Parliament, or it should be left to elected governments (representative democracy).

FWIW I think we need a written constitution that covers these things.

Now they arrogantly want to overturn our decision.

They need to think again if they think that they can keep taking the public for granted.

The referendum was won on lies and fantasies - it is impossible to give the people what was promised to them if they voted leave.

How can having another vote now we know facts be taking the public for granted? It is the only democratic way forward - this is too important to rely on a vote based on misinformation.

In other news:
Special sitting for MPs to decide Brexit future
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
As you have no direct say in who is prime minister.

Thats the way it works and what we signed for when we joined the EU.

Nope,we joined a common market trade block,it was a mistake from the begining,even de Gaulle knew that,since then many changes and an uneven playing ground,an inner wealthier circle and the rest poor.

So the obvious thing to have done would have been helping those poorer countries with investment and help to build their countries,not freedom of movement where all the poor move in one direction and where the actions of one state could adversely affect us all.

As for elections it's straightforward,I have a vote that gets counted,in Europe I vote for someone to hopefully vote for what I want,it rarely makes a difference though because it's too complicated and definitely what was voted for in the beginning.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Nope,we joined a common market trade block,it was a mistake from the begining,even de Gaulle knew that,since then many changes and an uneven playing ground,an inner wealthier circle and the rest poor.

So the obvious thing to have done would have been helping those poorer countries with investment and help to build their countries,not freedom of movement where all the poor move in one direction and where the actions of one state could adversely affect us all.

As for elections it's straightforward,I have a vote that gets counted,in Europe I vote for someone to hopefully vote for what I want,it rarely makes a difference though because it's too complicated and definitely what was voted for in the beginning.


Any changes were ratified by your elected representatives.

You elected your representative so ...
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
We had a referendum in 1975. In any case, either this sort of constitutional change needs a fixed process, like a referendum with some threshold (an only when we know what the choices are) or some super-majority in Parliament, or it should be left to elected governments (representative democracy).

FWIW I think we need a written constitution that covers these things.



The referendum was won on lies and fantasies - it is impossible to give the people what was promised to them if they voted leave.

How can having another vote now we know facts be taking the public for granted? It is the only democratic way forward - this is too important to rely on a vote based on misinformation.

In other news:
Special sitting for MPs to decide Brexit future

We were not given a vote when we were forced into the Common Market as they called it then.

As for the yet unfulfilled referendum, Project Fear was used to deter us from leaving because if we did, we would leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, etc. All this would be like Armageddon and would bring death and pestilence.

As soon as they recovered from the shock of all that not having worked, they changed their tune and started talking about Soft Brexit and Hard Brexit. These were terms that were never mentioned until after the Brexit result.

The quislings are at it again –


Even a previous Speaker in the form of Betty Boothroyd has had cause to question his behaviour.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Any changes were ratified by your elected representatives.

You elected your representative so ...

Still without our consent,I don't remember having a vote on the Maastricht treaty or any other treaty,Fact is we've been held prisoner in the EU by not allowing a vote for 40 years,if we had we would have been out long ago.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Sassoli..Italian dem.
Desperate servant of Merkel and Macron.
Salvini is different.

Y3vHP_M0.png
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
As soon as they recovered from the shock of all that not having worked, they changed their tune and started talking about Soft Brexit and Hard Brexit. These were terms that were never mentioned until after the Brexit result.

That's because many in the Leave campaign were actually talking about what is now called a soft Brexit - even Farage was mentioning Norway as an example.

That's one of the reasons why the referendum was so flawed, nobody had defined what leave actually meant so it became all things to all people who were (for any reason, EU related or not) dissatisfied with how things were.

I know how you like video...

 
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