What's your take on suffering and pain?

[just_some_guy7090]

Given that severe suffering and pain impact so many people in the world and throughout history, what's your take on how a deity should/would respond?

I'm drawn to the story of Father Damien (it's the 150th anniversary of his ministry):

At his own request, Father Damien, a Roman Catholic priest, was assigned to a leper colony on Molokai Island, Hawaii, in 1873. The colony had no medical doctor or priest to care for them. Father Damien’s motivation for going was simple: he couldn’t imagine people living out their last days in isolation with no one to care for them. With profound empathy, he did everything for the members of the colony—he bathed them, dressed festering ulcers, built coffins, dug graves, and held worship services. He served the colony for twelve years. One Sunday, everything changed. Father Damien stood in front of the congregation of lepers and opened his robes to show the first signs of leprosy. He began his sermon with the words, “We lepers.” (from "The God Conversation" by JP Moreland)

Would you agree with a deconstructed (former?) Christian I know who said the best advice for suffering is "to sit with it" and avoid "tidy sayings" of religion?
Father Damien's story brought tears to my eyes. Does it impact you? Why do you think that is?

Despite the many evils perpetrated by people claiming to be Christian, does Jesus represent a compassionate response to suffering?

Jesus was betrayed, falsely accused, arrested on trumped-up charges, beaten, mocked, and brutally killed. His dearest friends deserted and disowned him. Father Damien did what he did to be like Jesus, because "God does not merely empathize with our suffering; he has experienced it firsthand." (Moreland)

How does that perspective on suffering land with you? Would love to hear your thoughts...

 

[Twilight Hue]

Life is pain.

Its not something that can be escaped so my take is adaption and acceptance.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Would you agree with a deconstructed (former?) Christian I know who said the best advice for suffering is "to sit with it" and avoid "tidy sayings" of religion?

No.

How does that perspective on suffering land with you?

It really doesn't.

Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Given that severe suffering and pain impact so many people in the world and throughout history, what's your take on how a deity should/would respond?

I'm drawn to the story of Father Damien (it's the 150th anniversary of his ministry):

At his own request, Father Damien, a Roman Catholic priest, was assigned to a leper colony on Molokai Island, Hawaii, in 1873. The colony had no medical doctor or priest to care for them. Father Damien’s motivation for going was simple: he couldn’t imagine people living out their last days in isolation with no one to care for them. With profound empathy, he did everything for the members of the colony—he bathed them, dressed festering ulcers, built coffins, dug graves, and held worship services. He served the colony for twelve years. One Sunday, everything changed. Father Damien stood in front of the congregation of lepers and opened his robes to show the first signs of leprosy. He began his sermon with the words, “We lepers.” (from "The God Conversation" by JP Moreland)

Would you agree with a deconstructed (former?) Christian I know who said the best advice for suffering is "to sit with it" and avoid "tidy sayings" of religion?
Father Damien's story brought tears to my eyes. Does it impact you? Why do you think that is?

Despite the many evils perpetrated by people claiming to be Christian, does Jesus represent a compassionate response to suffering?

Jesus was betrayed, falsely accused, arrested on trumped-up charges, beaten, mocked, and brutally killed. His dearest friends deserted and disowned him. Father Damien did what he did to be like Jesus, because "God does not merely empathize with our suffering; he has experienced it firsthand." (Moreland)

How does that perspective on suffering land with you? Would love to hear your thoughts...

I think there's virtue in helping others.

I also think there's virtue in helping others despite a risk to onesself.

I don't think there's any added virtue when the risk materializes and the person suffers themselves.

I used to be a race marshal. One of the principles they drilled into us was to not take stupid risks, because if we got hurt, there would be one more person who needed help but one fewer person to do the helping.

You ended the story before Damien got sick and died. To the extent that the care of the people at that colony relied on him (there was a whole administration and staff that your story didn't mention), that went away when he died.

You opened by paraphrasing Damien's thoughts: "he couldn’t imagine people living out their last days in isolation with no one to care for them." Once Damien became too ill to care for others, he was doing nothing for this thing you presented as an importantly priority for him.

 

[Quintessence]

I find the assumption that the gods would be aware of, much less care about, the suffering of various peoples (human and non-human) perplexing. Most of the gods aren't even aware that I exist, much less care about me. Why would they (or should they) respond to conditions of something they aren't aware of nor care about?

The gods do that which is in accord with their nature. That rarely includes "caring" about peoples, human or otherwise. Of the subset that do, using the word "care" is a bit too much of an anthropomorphism for my tastes. The Trees of the Forest could be said to "care" about the other peoples they support within their respective ecosystems, but that's not how I'd typically put it.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

That **** happens and poo-poo occurs, and it's not due to divine will or retribution, and that sometimes it's the fault of that particular individual.

 

[Koldo]

That **** happens and poo-poo occurs, and it's not due to divine will or retribution, and that sometimes it's the fault of that particular individual.

I was under the impression you believe in gods.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I was under the impression you believe in gods.

I do, that doesn't mean that I believe every single thing is because of divine punishment. If you crash your car on an icy road is it because you did something that your religion says is bad, or is it because you hafta go to work and live in a region with winter weather?

If you smoke multiple times a day for years on end, there's a strong probability that you'll suffer severe respiratory issues. Is that divine retribution for earthly pleasures, or is it you indulging even though you know about the health risks that come with it?

If you got robbed and killed, then it wasn't anyone's fault except for the psycho who assaulted you.

The Gods don't need to parent and punish us every step of the way, and certainly not for every single itty bitty thing.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, because life is unpredictable and there's no guarantee that you will live a long or happy life.

 

[Ponder This]

Given that severe suffering and pain impact so many people in the world and throughout history, what's your take on how a deity should/would respond?

I'm drawn to the story of Father Damien (it's the 150th anniversary of his ministry):

At his own request, Father Damien, a Roman Catholic priest, was assigned to a leper colony on Molokai Island, Hawaii, in 1873. The colony had no medical doctor or priest to care for them. Father Damien’s motivation for going was simple: he couldn’t imagine people living out their last days in isolation with no one to care for them. With profound empathy, he did everything for the members of the colony—he bathed them, dressed festering ulcers, built coffins, dug graves, and held worship services. He served the colony for twelve years. One Sunday, everything changed. Father Damien stood in front of the congregation of lepers and opened his robes to show the first signs of leprosy. He began his sermon with the words, “We lepers.” (from "The God Conversation" by JP Moreland)

Would you agree with a deconstructed (former?) Christian I know who said the best advice for suffering is "to sit with it" and avoid "tidy sayings" of religion?
Father Damien's story brought tears to my eyes. Does it impact you? Why do you think that is?

Despite the many evils perpetrated by people claiming to be Christian, does Jesus represent a compassionate response to suffering?

Jesus was betrayed, falsely accused, arrested on trumped-up charges, beaten, mocked, and brutally killed. His dearest friends deserted and disowned him. Father Damien did what he did to be like Jesus, because "God does not merely empathize with our suffering; he has experienced it firsthand." (Moreland)

How does that perspective on suffering land with you? Would love to hear your thoughts...

I would say that, in general, the ability to feel pain is important to have. People who cannot feel pain may unwittingly injure themselves in terrible ways. For example, if there is a hot pan on a stove top, and someone who does not feel pain grabs it, he may easily not realize that he has burned himself terribly until after he smells the burning flesh. The experience of pain appears to be an important function in bodily awareness.
If you want to say that the pan is evil because it burned you, then it seems to me that you are villifying the pan as opposed to seeking the remedy to your suffering.

 

[Koldo]

I do, that doesn't mean that I believe every single thing is because of divine punishment. If you crash your car on an icy road is it because you did something that your religion says is bad, or is it because you hafta go to work and live in a region with winter weather?

If you smoke multiple times a day for years on end, there's a strong probability that you'll suffer severe respiratory issues. Is that divine retribution for earthly pleasures, or is it you indulging even though you know about the health risks that come with it?

If you got robbed and killed, then it wasn't anyone's fault except for the psycho who assaulted you.

The Gods don't need to parent and punish us every step of the way, and certainly not for every single itty bitty thing.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, because life is unpredictable and there's no guarantee that you will live a long or happy life.

Ok, but how do you reconcile it never being related to divine will and your belief in gods?

 

[Koldo]

I would say that, in general, the ability to feel pain is important to have. People who cannot feel pain may unwittingly injure themselves in terrible ways. For example, if there is a hot pan on a stove top, and someone who does not feel pain grabs it, he may easily not realize that he has burned himself terribly until after he smells the burning flesh. The experience of pain appears to be an important function in bodily awareness.
If you want to say that the pan is evil because it burned you, then it seems to me that you are villifying the pan as opposed to seeking the remedy to your suffering.

This is perfectly in line with how an atheist would talk about pain. The issue only shows up with (most) theist perspectives.

 

[ChristineM]

I live with pain, I've had suffering. Give me pain every time

 

[Koldo]

Given that severe suffering and pain impact so many people in the world and throughout history, what's your take on how a deity should/would respond?

I'm drawn to the story of Father Damien (it's the 150th anniversary of his ministry):

At his own request, Father Damien, a Roman Catholic priest, was assigned to a leper colony on Molokai Island, Hawaii, in 1873. The colony had no medical doctor or priest to care for them. Father Damien’s motivation for going was simple: he couldn’t imagine people living out their last days in isolation with no one to care for them. With profound empathy, he did everything for the members of the colony—he bathed them, dressed festering ulcers, built coffins, dug graves, and held worship services. He served the colony for twelve years. One Sunday, everything changed. Father Damien stood in front of the congregation of lepers and opened his robes to show the first signs of leprosy. He began his sermon with the words, “We lepers.” (from "The God Conversation" by JP Moreland)

Would you agree with a deconstructed (former?) Christian I know who said the best advice for suffering is "to sit with it" and avoid "tidy sayings" of religion?
Father Damien's story brought tears to my eyes. Does it impact you? Why do you think that is?

Despite the many evils perpetrated by people claiming to be Christian, does Jesus represent a compassionate response to suffering?

Jesus was betrayed, falsely accused, arrested on trumped-up charges, beaten, mocked, and brutally killed. His dearest friends deserted and disowned him. Father Damien did what he did to be like Jesus, because "God does not merely empathize with our suffering; he has experienced it firsthand." (Moreland)

How does that perspective on suffering land with you? Would love to hear your thoughts...

The best response to suffering is found in medicine, psychology, care, and compassion.

 

[Kenny]

Given that severe suffering and pain impact so many people in the world and throughout history, what's your take on how a deity should/would respond?

I'm drawn to the story of Father Damien (it's the 150th anniversary of his ministry):

At his own request, Father Damien, a Roman Catholic priest, was assigned to a leper colony on Molokai Island, Hawaii, in 1873. The colony had no medical doctor or priest to care for them. Father Damien’s motivation for going was simple: he couldn’t imagine people living out their last days in isolation with no one to care for them. With profound empathy, he did everything for the members of the colony—he bathed them, dressed festering ulcers, built coffins, dug graves, and held worship services. He served the colony for twelve years. One Sunday, everything changed. Father Damien stood in front of the congregation of lepers and opened his robes to show the first signs of leprosy. He began his sermon with the words, “We lepers.” (from "The God Conversation" by JP Moreland)

Would you agree with a deconstructed (former?) Christian I know who said the best advice for suffering is "to sit with it" and avoid "tidy sayings" of religion?
Father Damien's story brought tears to my eyes. Does it impact you? Why do you think that is?

Despite the many evils perpetrated by people claiming to be Christian, does Jesus represent a compassionate response to suffering?

Jesus was betrayed, falsely accused, arrested on trumped-up charges, beaten, mocked, and brutally killed. His dearest friends deserted and disowned him. Father Damien did what he did to be like Jesus, because "God does not merely empathize with our suffering; he has experienced it firsthand." (Moreland)

How does that perspective on suffering land with you? Would love to hear your thoughts...

that is a beautiful story of faith, hope and love in all of its aspects.

Suffering should be met with empathy and Father Damien showed, not by words alone, but by words matched with deeds.

The ultimate goal is that when we view suffering, bowels of compassion should spring forth for in that compassion, we will see God.

 

[sun rise]

This is a complex question because pain and suffering by themselves are very general. For example we have “The thrill of victory, and the agony of defeat.” - a famous quote from the sports world. To lose a competition can cause suffering. There are many other situations such as a woman having a miscarriage which involves both pain and suffering.

Another famous quote is “what cannot be cured must be endured”. That's a good philosophy IMO.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

Ok, but how do you reconcile it never being related to divine will and your belief in gods?

Dude, I just gave you some examples why.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Given that severe suffering and pain impact so many people in the world and throughout history, what's your take on how a deity should/would respond?

I'm drawn to the story of Father Damien (it's the 150th anniversary of his ministry):

At his own request, Father Damien, a Roman Catholic priest, was assigned to a leper colony on Molokai Island, Hawaii, in 1873. The colony had no medical doctor or priest to care for them. Father Damien’s motivation for going was simple: he couldn’t imagine people living out their last days in isolation with no one to care for them. With profound empathy, he did everything for the members of the colony—he bathed them, dressed festering ulcers, built coffins, dug graves, and held worship services. He served the colony for twelve years. One Sunday, everything changed. Father Damien stood in front of the congregation of lepers and opened his robes to show the first signs of leprosy. He began his sermon with the words, “We lepers.” (from "The God Conversation" by JP Moreland)

Would you agree with a deconstructed (former?) Christian I know who said the best advice for suffering is "to sit with it" and avoid "tidy sayings" of religion?
Father Damien's story brought tears to my eyes. Does it impact you? Why do you think that is?

Despite the many evils perpetrated by people claiming to be Christian, does Jesus represent a compassionate response to suffering?

Jesus was betrayed, falsely accused, arrested on trumped-up charges, beaten, mocked, and brutally killed. His dearest friends deserted and disowned him. Father Damien did what he did to be like Jesus, because "God does not merely empathize with our suffering; he has experienced it firsthand." (Moreland)

How does that perspective on suffering land with you? Would love to hear your thoughts...

Just because I can't help myself to not mention it here.......

Back here in Belgium, Damien's native country, another version of that story lives.
As the story goes, this version says he didn't exactly go out of free will, but was forced to by the church leadership and going to live in Molakai was actually a punishment for his perversions. It was sold to the public as his own choice to make the catholic church look good.

It's near impossible to demonstrate off course. Back then the catholic church had such a hard grip on communities that it's impossible to back it up with verifiable evidence.

It nevertheless is a version of the story that has always existed in his home town for more then a century.

 

[Koldo]

Dude, I just gave you some examples why.

By providing examples, you have shown there are some cases where divine will is not involved (I would still dispute that claim depending on what gods you believe in, but let's not go there). How do you exclude every single instance from being a consequence of divine will though? Examples simply won't suffice.

 

[just_some_guy7090]

What's your take on the suffering of Jesus? Christians believe that there's one God whose answer to suffering is personal... he became a human and suffered too. So in our religion, God is not distant from suffering, not the cause of suffering (retribution), but entered into it with us.

 

[just_some_guy7090]

You ended the story before Damien got sick and died. To the extent that the care of the people at that colony relied on him (there was a whole administration and staff that your story didn't mention), that went away when he died.

You make a good point... Damien died and his post was vacant. That's where the analogy to Jesus breaks down. Jesus died but rose again to continue offering ministry to the hurting and give us eternal life.

I don't know of any other religion whose God became human to suffer along with us. I find it remarkable.