When And How?

[Stevicus]

Or if you really believe both I’d have to throw you in camp 2 because clearly you believe the universe was always here and then Joe claimed it as his own.

It may or may not have been "always here," but it's also possible that whatever caused it to come into existence may have been accidental or unintentional.

 

[LuisDantas]

There’s a third camp?

Definitely. And several other beyond the three.

For starters, there are people such as me that believe the universe had a start but there is nothing remotely resembling a "god" involved in that.

But really, we need to establish the definitions and premises for this discussion to have a modicum of meaning or purpose.

 

[Jimmy]

It may or may not have been "always here," but it's also possible that whatever caused it to come into existence may have been accidental or unintentional.

You’re entitled to believe it was an accident or unintentional but you would still fall in camp 1.

I’d call you the believer in the accidental God.

 

[Stevicus]

You’re entitled to believe it was an accident or unintentional but you would still fall in camp 1.

I’d call you the believer in the accidental God.

I just said that "it's possible." I don't really "believe" one way or the other.

 

[Jimmy]

Definitely. And several other beyond the three.

For starters, there are people such as me that believe the universe had a start but there is nothing remotely resembling a "god" involved in that.

But really, we need to establish the definitions and premises for this discussion to have a modicum of meaning or purpose.

I can already see you’re going to get into some weird semantics. So I’ll opt out of conversing with you.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can already see you’re going to get into some weird semantics. So I’ll opt out of conversing with you.

That is not how you spell "relevant", though. But you are right. I am an awful pigeon chess player, so be away.

 

[Jimmy]

I just said that "it's possible." I don't really "believe" one way or the other.

Oh I know. I’m just saying that’s what I would call you if you really did believe that.

 

[SalixIncendium]

So there’s two camps in life. The first camp are people that believe God created the universe and all of existence. In the other camp are people that believe that the universe and existence has always been here. The key questions here, if you’re in the first camp, are when did existence come to be and how? That’s where all the religions come in and offer up different viewpoints. Truly, there was only one way imo.

I belong to neither camp.

 

[SalixIncendium]

There’s a third camp?

Wouldn't that contradict what you said in the OP?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Then again, earlier you asked what if neither camp is correct. Certainly your third camp is definitely not correct. So in that respect, there isn’t really a third camp is there?

There is a third...and likely many more. Not everyone fits neatly into your two proposed boxes. I don't.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I can already see you’re going to get into some weird semantics. So I’ll opt out of conversing with you.

That's a shame. You might have actually learned something.

 

[ChristineM]

There’s a third camp?

There are at least 32 other camps. Most believe the universe came into existence almost 13.8 billion years ago.

 

[Mock Turtle]

There are several possibilities, and hence beliefs, as to when, how, and why (if any such) what we experience as existence came to be. In the past (long ago), our ancestors would hardly have even contemplated such questions (just inventing various easily understood variations), and in the future (if we survive), our descendants will likely have better knowledge than we have currently - but even then, the truth might not be forthcoming. For us now, we are not really in a position to have the true answers, and hence will likely choose one explanation (out of many) for various reasons - usually that which makes sense to us with the knowledge and abilities we have. For me, the honest answer is we don't know but some explanations are less likely than others - especially those relying on old religious textual material. We do seem to have sufficient evidence to justify beliefs as to the age of our current universe but anything beyond that is open to speculation - but then I am not a physicist or astrophysicist.

 

[RestlessSoul]

There’s a third camp?

Always

 

[RestlessSoul]

There are several possibilities, and hence beliefs, as to when, how, and why (if any such) what we experience as existence came to be. In the past (long ago), our ancestors would hardly have even contemplated such questions (just inventing various easily understood variations), and in the future (if we survive), our descendants will likely have better knowledge than we have currently - but even then, the truth might not be forthcoming. For us now, we are not really in a position to have the true answers, and hence will likely choose one explanation (out of many) for various reasons - usually that which makes sense to us with the knowledge and abilities we have. For me, the honest answer is we don't know but some explanations are less likely than others - especially those relying on old religious textual material. We do seem to have sufficient evidence to justify beliefs as to the age of our current universe but anything beyond that is open to speculation - but then I am not a physicist or astrophysicist.

Modernist exceptionalism encourages a very negative view of our ancestors; the people who put the oxen to the plough, who planted their crops and navigated the seas by the stars, who created language both spoken and written; they can’t possibly have been simpletons devoid of wisdom.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Modernist exceptionalism encourages a very negative view of our ancestors; the people who put the oxen to the plough, who planted their crops and navigated the seas by the stars, who created language both spoken and written; they can’t possibly have been simpletons devoid of wisdom.

They were certainly devoid of knowledge - as to even the workings of the human body or mind. This as to the common population rather than the few who did question things. All I'm saying is that we appear to be in the middle (roughly) but where many think they know it all - in whatever direction they appear to travel, be it religious or not.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There’s a third camp?

Well, as a skeptic it is unknown to me, how the universe is in the objective sense of being in itself, so I don't know if it started or not, has always been here or not or any other version of how it is as such.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Modernist exceptionalism encourages a very negative view of our ancestors; the people who put the oxen to the plough, who planted their crops and navigated the seas by the stars, who created language both spoken and written; they can’t possibly have been simpletons devoid of wisdom.

They were certainly devoid of knowledge - as to even the workings of the human body or mind. This as to the common population rather than the few who did question things. All I'm saying is that we appear to be in the middle (roughly) but where many think they know it all - in whatever direction they appear to travel, be it religious or not.

*emphasis mine*

Are you intentionally conflating 'knowledge' and 'wisdom?'

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So there’s two camps in life. The first camp are people that believe God created the universe and all of existence. In the other camp are people that believe that the universe and existence has always been here. The key questions here, if you’re in the first camp, are when did existence come to be and how? That’s where all the religions come in and offer up different viewpoints. Truly, there was only one way imo.

Let me help you out a bit.

There are spectrums of beleif/speculation about what you stated, and some beleifs though claimed to be different in some form of fashion fall into the following groups.

1. Beleif that the universe/reality always existed, beyond the realm of what humans can define in English as always.
2. Beleif that the universe/reality always existed, within the realm of what humans can define in English as always.
3. Beleif that the universe/reality in its current format did not always exist. Possibily predated by something else.
4. Beleif that the universe/reality in its current format did not always exist, and nothing that can be defined by English verbage can describe what nothing meant.
5. Beleif that the universe/reality in its current format did not always existed, and it was created by something that is beyond itself being created.
6. Beleif that the universe/reality in its current format did not always existed, and it was created by what English speakers describe as a god.
7. Beleif that the universe/reality in its current format did not always existed, and it was created by what English speakers describe as a gods, in the plural. One of these gods created the others and in turn they created universe/reality.
8. Beleif that no one, human, knows how the universe/reality came about.
9. Beleif that someone, human, knows how the universe/reality came about.
10. Claim that some human/humans were informed by the source of reality/creation small details about how things were created. Said source does not fit within the English term god.
11. On going research into how the universe/reality came about with no personal/religious assumptions about what the findings are.
12. etc. etc. etc.

 

[Mock Turtle]

*emphasis mine*

Are you intentionally conflating 'knowledge' and 'wisdom?'

Wisdom was mentioned (not by me) but knowledge is the important factor. In my lifetime, DNA has been discovered and explains so many things, Planets have been found to be abundant around most stars. Computers have been developed to the point where AI is now becoming relevant and probably far-reaching in its effects. These are just a few of the things happening over the last century or so, and where that which enabled their origins were but perhaps five or six centuries back. These things are not comparable with the knowledge around when religions began. This is my point - that beliefs are mostly founded on knowledge - or simply speculation. But religions were mostly founded when knowledge - that which might truly explain so much - was simply absent.