When did God tell the Israelites that He was three persons?

[Five Solas]

You are denying everything off hand?

Were none of them true - in any way at all?

Can you present a similar list, then, of what you do think is true - beginning to end of scriptures?

You are a wolf in sheep's clothes.

 

[Soapy]

You are a wolf in sheep's clothes.

Why do you say that?

 

[Five Solas]

Remember / bear in mind … that a snake will keep slithering about trying to find a way out of a box that it traps itself in. It may go quiet after a long while but as soon as peeked on it will regain its slithering … anger from you wont stop their deceit - in fact they may use it to say that YOU are abusing THEM and get you into trouble! Treat it more like a godly joy when they squirm the way you opponent is doing now since it confirms that they know they are wrong and you are more likely right - but that right(iousness) belongs to God through the word brought from God by Jesus in the scriptures!

Oh, my word...

 

[Five Solas]

Why do you say that?

Because you deny this:
We = all Christians, believe in one God who is both three and one (triune); the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one in essence and undivided. All three persons are consubstantial with each other, that is, they are of one essence and co-eternal. There never was a time when any of the persons of the Trinity did not exist. God is beyond and before time and yet acts within time, moving and speaking within history.

 

[Soapy]

Isaiah 48:16
“Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.

John 1:14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

BTW, the new Testament was written for Israel as well as for the gentiles.

“Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.

It is God: YHWH that says: “Draw near… from the beginning I have not spoken in secret…”

God spoke these words several times in the Old Testament:

• “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’” (Isaiah 46:10)

And the prophesy of Jesus being ‘SENT’ by the spirit of God is the outcome:

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)

And ‘Sent’:

• “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.” (John 17:18)

If you want to claim Jesus was ‘SENT FROM HEAVEN’ then you also need to say that the Apostles were ‘SENT FROM HEAVEN’!

The sending into the ‘World’ just means ‘facing adversity; unrighteousness; sin and temptation’.
After Jesus conquered these things he announced:

• “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.… I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.… I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world… My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.“ (John 17: 8…16)

What does the symbolic term ‘the world’ mean to you?

 

[Soapy]

Because you deny this:
We = all Christians, believe in one God who is both three and one (triune); the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one in essence and undivided. All three persons are consubstantial with each other, that is, they are of one essence and co-eternal. There never was a time when any of the persons of the Trinity did not exist. God is beyond and before time and yet acts within time, moving and speaking within history.

It is what YOU believe.

What is ESSENCE? So far over years I’ve asked this question and no trinitarian has ever given an answer…

Can you break the duck??

 

[Soapy]

So you can't comprehend it so it must be wrong.

Jesus gave the apostles the word God gave him to give to them - and they have accepted it. Anything that is incomprehensible does not come from God in that regard!

When I ask a trinitarian a question about trinity they inevitably cannot answer with intelligent answers. It’s quite plain and obvious why that is. You must have squirmed at your trinitarian protagonists even in this thread at their poor responses (oh no! You don’t need to admit it to me!)

No that is certainly not saying "I am not God" and that does not mean that Jesus was not God, it means that Jesus, as a man, has a God. His Father became His God when He became a man (Psalm 22:10)

Jesus rebuking the Jews in saying: ‘[I did not call myself God:] I only said that God is my Father’ is not saying that Jesus is not Almighty God??

Yes the humble suffering human servant of God is in a lesser positional status than God, good thinking. This was also the case for the Son before He became a man because He was and is the Son, the one who is subject to His Father. He was not a servant then however.(see Phil 2:6-8)

You are saying that Jesus is ‘the humble suffering servant of God’ … and IS GOD?

So then he is the humble suffering servant of himself?

You say that almighty God is in a lesser position to Almighty God? How can an almighty entity be less than an almighty entity which is itself that self-same entity?

You say Jesus was LESS THAN GOD before becoming a man - ALMIGHTY GOD BECAME A MAN!! Isn’t that the stuff of Paganism??? Are we to believe in Odin and Thor or Zeus and Heracles?
You need to put down those mythology books before you go to bed!

But you can't even see that Jesus existed before becoming a man so Philipians 2 has nothing to say to you I guess.

Phil 2 does not say anything about a pre-existence of Jesus. It states that anyone who desires to be like Jesus should follow the example of Jesus - in that, though he was anointed with the spirit of God and could do great things, he nonetheless made himself humble and acted like a servant. The whole of Phil 2 is about setting Jesus as an example for the behaviour of those in Christ-like power: though you have the power to do great things do not throw it in peoples faces. Jesus emphasised this in speaking with Peter: ‘Unless I wash your feet…’ (washing someone’s feet was the most humblest of tasks after greeting someone in your home!) - Also: ‘Those wish to be first in the kingdom of God must set themselves last’… that’s what Phil 2 is about!

Yes everything the Son has is from His Father, even His life. THAT is the definition of who the Father is to Jesus. His life comes from His Father. BUT that has been from eternity, because Jesus was not one of the things that came into existence because He always has existed (see John 1:3, Col 1:15,16, Heb 1:1-4 etc)

Woweee!! You say Jesus is almighty God but almighty God receives everything from his Father … Well, that’s an odd kind of almighty God entity!! The giver is greater than the receiver - but in your scenario the receiver is equal to the giver: what kind of illogical thing is that? What can an equal entity receive from another equal entity and yet while being equal is less than the equal but GREATER entity…

The Son is the heir of all that His Father has. It all belongs to Him (John 16:15) and as you should know, Jesus was given all power and authority in heaven and earth (Matt 28:18)
So everyone knows now that Jesus is Almighty God, He is Lord, He is YHWH (name above all names).

Brian2, an HEIR does not OWN the things his Father HAS IN STORE for him until it is given him. The all power and authority in Heaven and earth WAS ONLY UNTIL all things were set to rights…. Whereupon Jesus HANDS BACK the power and authority to his Father…

If Jesus is ‘Almighty God’ while he has all power and authority, what is Jesus after he hands it back to almighty God?

And you say trinity is not incomprehensible???

 

[Soapy]

Yes Jesus was God's agent/envoy. So. That does not mean that He is not the Son with the same nature as His Father. Jesus is the Son of God with the same nature as His Father.




The Father is the only true God. His is one, a compound one, united to the Son and the Spirit as one God. Jesus said "I and the Father are one" One is neuter here, it means one thing.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" When we see God we see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It might be the Spirit who is speaking or doing, it might be the Son, it might be the Father, but all 3 are there in the one God, as the one God, with the Father being called the one true God because it is from Him that the Son and the Spirit come. He is the source and that is how it has been from eternity.
You trip yourself up with mathematics. Each of them are 100% God but not 100% OF God.
300% does not work out, so why do you posit something that is nonsense?



No, Jesus resurrection was the revelation that Jesus was truly the Son of God, equal in nature to His Father. Nobody can become God.



Jesus is sort of executive officer because He becomes subject to His Father (1Cor 15:28) as the Son should be. At the moment He has all power and authority (Matt 28:18). But things go back to how they were before Jesus came to earth as a man.

Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is given the name above all names, His Father's name, YHWH. (verse 9)
And at that name, the name of Jesus, YHWH, we all worship Him and that glorifies God the Father.
The New Testament in other places shows us that Jesus was YHWH before and during the creation, so there is no promotion of Jesus to that position, it is just revealing that to everyone, it is the Son inheriting all that belongs to Him anyway (see John 16:15)
Once everyone knows He is God along with His Father, we all honor Him as we do the Father, forever.
Why do you say that the synoptic gospels do not agree with John just because they do not give the same information? Why do you think that one gospel cannot proclaim Jesus from a different pov and still agree with what the others say. Same goes for Paul.
Yours is just another way of saying that the story of Jesus is not true. It makes sense to those who do not believe the story and might be believed by them along with the 1001 other ways to pull down the story of Jesus, but does not make any sense really when we consider that the whole New Testament was put together as a bunch of writings that agreed with each other and the teachings of the early Church.

I love this:

The Father is the only true God. His is one, a compound one, united to the Son and the Spirit as one God. Jesus said "I and the Father are one" One is neuter here, it means one thing.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" When we see God we see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It might be the Spirit who is speaking or doing, it might be the Son, it might be the Father, but all 3 are there in the one God, as the one God, with the Father being called the one true God because it is from Him that the Son and the Spirit come. He is the source and that is how it has been from eternity.
You trip yourself up with mathematics. Each of them are 100% God but not 100% OF God.

Fantastic nonsense…

The bit about the mathematics is the best part:
1 - I and the Father are one (That makes a trinity
2 - When we see God we see [the trinity] : ‘Stephen, looking up into Heaven saw GOD seated on his throne and Jesus STANDING next to him…
3 - The Father is greater than I… Jesus is equal God but lesser to his Father who IS GOD… notice that there is no comparison to a supposed third triune entity!!

You just couldn’t make it up!!! ……. Oh, but they did!!!

 

[natasha levchenko]

Why, for thousands of years, did none of God’s prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the “central doctrine” of faith?
The idea of Trinity goes back to ancient times. Long before Christ
there were triads, or trinities, of gods in ancient Babylonia and Assyria .n Mesopotamian area it was believed that The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu’s share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods.
Regarding the timing of the “great tribulation,” Matthew 24:36 reads, “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. “For how could the Son not know things the Father knows—if they are coequal?
My take is that ,before I start believing in something I find it relevant to answer the question “am I interested in the origin of the teaching?”
If my answer is “no” that might mean I’m ready to be deceived

 

[Brian2]

26 "Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,"
with that in mind , am i a trinity ?

We do have a mind, body and spirit according to the scriptures (Gen 2:26 speaks of our body and spirit for example, and other places speak of our mind, even if the Watch Tower likes to say that "remember man that you are dust" tells us the full story of what a human being is).
So yes we can be seen to be made in the image of God in that way even though the passage is probably referring to other ways we are made in the image of God.
It is interesting that we are not complete without one of those elements and each one communicates with the others and is in charge at times, but the spirit is the highest part of man.

 

[Brian2]

Why, for thousands of years, did none of God’s prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the “central doctrine” of faith?
The idea of Trinity goes back to ancient times. Long before Christ
there were triads, or trinities, of gods in ancient Babylonia and Assyria .n Mesopotamian area it was believed that The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu’s share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods.
Regarding the timing of the “great tribulation,” Matthew 24:36 reads, “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. “For how could the Son not know things the Father knows—if they are coequal?
My take is that ,before I start believing in something I find it relevant to answer the question “am I interested in the origin of the teaching?”
If my answer is “no” that might mean I’m ready to be deceived

Jesus was a man on earth who left His Godly powers behind to be humble Himself and become man and servant of God, which He was before He became a man. (see Phil 2:6-9)
The fullness of the trinity teaching is one of those things that His disciples could not accept while He was with them. That was left to the Holy Spirit to guide them into all the truth. His disciples were struggling with whom He was, that is clear but it is also clear that in the end they knew the truth, that He was their Lord and God, just as Thomas said.
There are plenty of places in the NT that point back to the OT and where it is speaking about Jesus while using the word YHWH. But in the OT the main thing for the Jews was to know that there is just one God. It was hard enough for them to know that, imagine the confusion that would have been wreaked if they have to try to understand how one God could be 3 in some way. People still have difficulty with that and it seems some refuse to believe it for that reason.
When it comes to the origins of the trinity doctrine you and the Watch Tower sound like those who claim that the gospel story of Jesus was copied from other religions that predate the gospels.
The truth is that having your ears tickled by the Watch Tower and their take on the origins of the trinity teaching has probably helped lead you into believing their deceptions.

 

[cataway]

We do have a mind, body and spirit according to the scriptures (Gen 2:26 speaks of our body and spirit for example, and other places speak of our mind, even if the Watch Tower likes to say that "remember man that you are dust" tells us the full story of what a human being is).
So yes we can be seen to be made in the image of God in that way even though the passage is probably referring to other ways we are made in the image of God.
It is interesting that we are not complete without one of those elements and each one communicates with the others and is in charge at times, but the spirit is the highest part of man.

not surprised you used that analogy
the spirit of man (and even animal) is not the same as the spirit which is God. sure, the same spelling, yet two different things

 

[Soapy]

not surprised you used that analogy
the spirit of man (and even animal) is not the same as the spirit which is God. sure, the same spelling, yet two different things

Brian2 says the OT used the named YHWH for Jesus … but yet Jesus says that the name above all names was given to him AFTER he, Jesus, had fulfilled what the Father taught him, and then sent him, to say and do …!:

• “All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.“ (John 17:10-11)
• “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,” (Phil 2:9)

Who are we to believe: Jesus, or Brian2?

 

[Soapy]

It's time to stop the nonsense:

Jn 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”


John 10

Belief and Unbelief Among the Jews
37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved human praise more than praise from God.

44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”


Then a stark warning from Jesus our Lord and God

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Mt 10:33

You mean that the Jews were right and Jesus tried to lie to them saying ‘I did not call myself God!’

You mean that Jesus doing the works of the Father - the works that God sent him to do - means that Jesus is God - doing what God taught him to do?

And you mean that God was sent to die to save mankind? God, who can turn even stones into children of Abraham?

And you mean that God be and the heir to God? And became ruler over creation that he created for himself through himself?

I’m not understanding this gibberish!

Why did your God to save his image from sin?

 

[Five Solas]

You mean that the Jews were right and Jesus tried to lie to them saying ‘I did not call myself God!’

You mean that Jesus doing the works of the Father - the works that God sent him to do - means that Jesus is God - doing what God taught him to do?

And you mean that God was sent to die to save mankind? God, who can turn even stones into children of Abraham?

And you mean that God be and the heir to God? And became ruler over creation that he created for himself through himself?

I’m not understanding this gibberish!

Why did your God to save his image from sin?

Do you think Lucifer, or the devil, is another son of God?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is Jesus in your ideas a God? Or just a mere creature like other humans?

There are, in fact, other possibilities.

 

[cataway]

It's time to stop the nonsense:

Jn 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

john 17
11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that " they may be one " just as we are one."

have you wondered why it is that Jesus wanted the 12 to morph in to one person?? oh! that's not what he was asking/saying was it ! ?? what he was saying is that they work together even as God and Jesus work together.
that BTW is not a trinity. it's just two different spirit beings working to accomplish some thing

 

[Five Solas]

john 17
11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that " they may be one " just as we are one."

have you wondered why it is that Jesus wanted the 12 to morph in to one person?? oh! that's not what he was asking/saying was it ! ?? what he was saying is that they work together even as God and Jesus work together.
that BTW is not a trinity. it's just two different spirit beings working to accomplish some thing

I am familiar with that view as well.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My question is specific. I want to figure out what heresy he/she holds to.

Being specific and being worthwhile is not at all the same thing, while being dismissive of the Gospel of John does not upset me in the least.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What is your view of God's Spirit? (e.g. in the creation account)

The primary meaning of the term (as a noun) is breath or wind. I take the reference as poetic, but it may have had an idiomatic connotation about which we can only guess.

Elohim is plural - what do make of that?

As I've noted elsewhere, Joel S. Burnett's A Reassessment of Biblical Elohim does an excellent job of noting this as an example of an Ancient Near East grammatical form he calls the "concretized abstract plural" where a thing" is conveyed as a plurality of forms and qualities. Other examples in Hebrew would be mayim (water) and panim (face).