When did God tell the Israelites that He was three persons?

[Soapy]

In response to your emotion I have done a search and found something like what you're talking about, but I've never heard anyone try to make this sort of argument, truly. I haven't been hiding.

Which must be frustrating, but what I'm saying is you have adopted their usage 'God' in the Sh'ma.

For example in a reply to me:

​

A question: does recitation of the Sh'ma include a hope that all people will be included? That would go far in lending credibility to translating 'Elohim' as 'God', because it would make it be less about only one small group of people and more like a prayer for everyone everywhere. In the quoted post it is assumed that Israel knows all about God already and is just using 'Elohim' as their term for that, but can such be shown from scripture prior to the catholic scripture? (Of course the gospels claim that it can, since they claim everything about Jesus can be.) Paul says "You were once aliens..." (Ephesians 2:2) Saying that the 'Elohim' in the Sh'ma has any connection with us depends upon a successful adoption of us. It requires that we are not aliens anymore. If we are not then 'God' could be a legitimate translation.

Its got diddly squat to do with a 'Trinity' though. Honestly I thought this must be a straw argument for you even bringing this up.

I’m not sure what you are asking from me. I really don’t know what you are on about?

My point, if that’s what we are talking about, is that trinitarian Christian claim that the verse (Sh’ma… Shema…) proves that God (El) is a trinity of persons.

I say that the claim is wholly invalid and even irreverent.

You say you never heard such a claim but have now found ‘something like it’…

Now you say you don’t know why I’m talking about trinity….!

What is the premise of the thread title?

What is the purpose behind the Sh’ma? What should the words mean to Christian’s or Jews?

 

[Soapy]

Jesus said that the Father is the only true God. I should not contradict that.

Quite right, Brian. You must not contradict the truth of God… the truth of the Father: YHWH. The Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD….

The term, ‘Father’, means ‘He who creates’. The Father (a Spirit) created a PHYSICAL WORLD and put a OVERSEER into it (Mankind):

• ‘In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth’
• ‘And he created man in his image’
• “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

This overseer is likened to a child who has yet to learn to control the great things he has in his possession:

• ‘For while he is a child he is no different to a servant!’).

The Father sought to find one from among humanity to be RULER over the created world. This, by necessity requires the ONE to be a physical being:

• ‘The world was created FOR HIM!’

So, when the man, Jesus, achieved all that the Father required of him regarding the revelation of the Father to mankind, he said to the Father:

• “I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.”

For this Jesus received the reward that awaited him from the beginning: the ruler over the created world:

• “My Father has entrusted everything to me.”

‘Entrusted’ but not yet ‘OWNED’… there were TWO MORE TESTS to carry out:

• He had to die for the salvation of mankind - when he was on the point of achieving this, he said:
  • “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit
• He has (still) to bring the damaged world to rights:
  • “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet .… When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

It is then that the Father makes him RULER in full over all the created world, on the prophesied ‘Throne of David’ (which is an ethereal throne - not ‘physical seat’ - over the created world)

• “The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

In addition, the holy angels, which are the ownership of the Father, will be replaced by human overseers over the earth.

Jesus: A human being ruler over a human world
YHWH: A spirit being ruler over a spirit world
_____________________

But now, since you previously claim a trinitarian stance on the scriptures, you would need to go further and deny that Jesus is ALSO ‘Almighty God’, a person of a fallacious trinity.

I almost stop short of asking you to deny the spirit of God AS ALMIGHTY GOD since the idea is so preposterous as to be evident from its inception - let alone being a core tenet of a claimed true belief for 2000 years!

 

[Soapy]

Omnipotence does not come with a number. God can be anything or nothing only at
HIS" choice. Muhammad and Christ have talked and been seen together. Maybe the One allowing this to happen would be considered a third party? Even though, there is only One God with or without numerological stance.

Omnipotence DOES come with a number: ONE.

There can be ONLY one that is ‘ALL POWERFUL’.

Trinity claims that there are THREE that are ALL POWERFUL… in fact, the fallacy even goes as far as saying that one these ‘all powerfuls’ who ditches his ‘All Powerfulness’ REMAINS ALL POWERFUL and alternates between being all powerful and being in weakness as a man AT HIS OWN WILL!!!

The most funny part is that the Father ETERNALLY REMAINS ALL POWERFUL but does not qualify as being the only ALL POWERFUL Being!!

That’s trinity for you!

 

[rational experiences]

One word that was described by men theorising yet conscious aware was cooling.

Cooling gained outcome O body existing G spiral rotation...core heat O DD the advice moving into OO.

So from cooling as the word was just GOD came three distinct aware movements of a body.

You can then say gases above with the womb space was the cloak of many colours. Adult position using similes as theists compare advices by man's living status the speaker.

The Inheritor by two bodies yet one ice...was water. Holy life of all things.

Those two bodies spirit.

So man was third review.

He also was three.

A man adult.
A son.
By spirit became a human baby...owner man's spirit sperm.

And magically so seeing he did not change his sperm inheritance to just be a baby woman. Via her cell ovah..ovary.

A teaching only.

 

[blü 2]

I have heard many debates about the so-called Trinity God that the greater sect of Christianity is supposed to believe in. However, I cannot find in the scriptures anywhere where God tells anyone that He is three persons.

I know that God tells the Israelites that He is ONE GOD and that they should have no other God but He…, but I can’t see anywhere where it is stated, inferred, conjectured, shown, nor proved to the Israelites, Jews, nor Christian’s, that He is three person!

Are there any such proofs, suggestions, inferences, etc….?

The Trinity concept is not found anywhere in the bible. For a start, each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT specifically denies that he's God and never claims to be God, only God's envoy.

However, from a fairly early date, there was pressure to promote the central character of Christianity to God status, and the only question was how. (There were also early Christian rows about whether eg Jesus was the son of God forever (as Paul and John say) or whether he was a ordinary mortal who obtained divinity when chosen by God (as Mark says) and of course much more.)

Out of the thunder of cannons and the smoke of battle and the cries of the wounded there emerges a winner, the Trinity doctrine, though not till the end of the 4th century. It says that God is one substance but three persons; the persons are Father, Jesus and Ghost; the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost, and Jesus is not the Ghost. The Father is 100% of God, Jesus is 100% of God, and the Ghost is 100% of God, but there's only one God.

That of course is incoherent. 100%+100%+100%=300%= 3 gods. The Churches admit the incoherence, but they call it by another name, "a mystery in the strict sense". A sharper synonym is "a nonsense".

Examples of the nonsense are the Jesuses of Mark and of Matthew saying on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" and all four gospel Jesuses praying in the garden, "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me" and John's Jesus saying he worships himself ─ and so on. Nor is it clear, when you pray to God, who answers the phone. Further, either God has only one will, so God is only one person, OR each of Father, Jesus and Ghost has [his] own will, so God is three persons.

Christians deal this problem by pretending it's not there. (If anyone has ever heard a sermon or fellowship address or bible class or the like pointing these things out, would they please put their hand up, because I've never heard of such a thing.) It seems to work ─ only theologians with strict instructions to find compatible answers, and a small number of onlooking non-Christians ever notice, or so it appears.

 

[Brian2]

• ‘The world was created FOR HIM!’

See Col 1:15,16, all things in heaven and on earth were created through and for Him.
So He was not created and He rules over all things in heaven and on earth.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There is not a verse anywhere in the scriptures that makes a claim that YHWH GOD is three in one.

If you think so then please produce it (Just remember that anything you produce will have been decimated wherever it was presented many times over.)

I feel little need to defend the historic position of evangelicals and Catholics and Protestants for millennia. There are numerous passages and verses. that are plain and clear, too:

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:20–21).

 

[Soapy]

See Col 1:15,16, all things in heaven and on earth were created through and for Him.
So He was not created and He rules over all things in heaven and on earth.

Oh Brian2, you were doing so well…. But I knew you had a hidden agenda:

• The best lies are 95% truths….!

Tell me, does that verse make sense - to you?

It was created THROUGH HIM…. Who created it THROUGH HIM?

Trinity backtracks and says ‘The Father created ALL THINGS through the Son’…

Double-back? Yes!

The verses in Corinthians speak of the ASCENDED Jesus. Therefore, since all things the Father created are now IN JESUS’ hands…. it is right to say that he sustains all things - all RIGHTEOUS THINGS … UNTIL he has brought all wickedness under his feet… WHENCE HE HANDS BACK ALL THINGS TO THE FATHER..

So Jesus is without all things UNTIL after THE JUDGEMENT… it is then that Jesus claims the full reward: the ethereal throne of David as RULER over THE CREATED WORLD (… does not include the realm of God: Heaven!!)

 

[Soapy]

I feel little need to defend the historic position of evangelicals and Catholics and Protestants for millennia. There are numerous passages and verses. that are plain and clear, too:

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:20–21).

Haa haa ha ha haaa …..!!!

‘There are numerous verses ….!’ Yet you can only produce ONE. I suppose that ONE means THREE, to you?

Moreover, doesn’t: “thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee” make TWO in each other?

So if Jesus and the Father make Jesus GOD because The Father is in Jesus… and you then go on to say that the apostles are also in the Fathed AND JESUS… then that means the Apostles ARE GOD, too!!!

Ok, so you are wrong on that verse. Show me another that you think stands a better chance of showing a THREE IN ONE GOD!

 

[Brian2]

Oh Brian2, you were doing so well…. But I knew you had a hidden agenda:

• The best lies are 95% truths….!

Tell me, does that verse make sense - to you?

It was created THROUGH HIM…. Who created it THROUGH HIM?

Trinity backtracks and says ‘The Father created ALL THINGS through the Son’…

Double-back? Yes!

The verses in Corinthians speak of the ASCENDED Jesus. Therefore, since all things the Father created are now IN JESUS’ hands…. it is right to say that he sustains all things - all RIGHTEOUS THINGS … UNTIL he has brought all wickedness under his feet… WHENCE HE HANDS BACK ALL THINGS TO THE FATHER..

So Jesus is without all things UNTIL after THE JUDGEMENT… it is then that Jesus claims the full reward: the ethereal throne of David as RULER over THE CREATED WORLD (… does not include the realm of God: Heaven!!)

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

It says He is before all things. Does that mean He is the first thing created?
No, it says that all things were created through Him, not all other things, so He was not created.
It says all things were created for Him,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and that is all things everywhere, visible and invisible. So the angels and any other beings are His and will be His.

 

[InChrist]

I have heard many debates about the so-called Trinity God that the greater sect of Christianity is supposed to believe in. However, I cannot find in the scriptures anywhere where God tells anyone that He is three persons.

I know that God tells the Israelites that He is ONE GOD and that they should have no other God but He…, but I can’t see anywhere where it is stated, inferred, conjectured, shown, nor proved to the Israelites, Jews, nor Christian’s, that He is three person!

Are there any such proofs, suggestions, inferences, etc….?

The plurality of the One God is revealed from the beginning and throughout the scriptures...

“The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence.

Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26
;11:7). Who is this "us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?

Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim(literally "gods") used for God repeatedly? In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [echad] Jehovah." The Hebrew word echad allows for a unity of more than one. For example, it is used in Genesis:2:24
where man and woman become one flesh; in Exodus:36:13
when the various parts "became onetabernacle"; in 2 Samuel:2:25
when many soldiers "became one troop"; and elsewhere.

Nor is the word elohim the only way in which God's plurality is presented. For example: Psalm:149:2
, "Let Israelrejoice in him that made him" (literally "makers"); Ecclesiastes:12:1
, "Remember now thy Creator (lit. "creators"); and Isaiah:54:5
, "For thy Maker is thine husband (lit. "makers, husbands"). Unitarianism has no explanation for this consistent presentation of God's plurality all through the Old Testament. Although the word "trinity" does not occur in the Bible, the concept is clearly there, providing the unity and diversity which makes possible the love, fellowship and communion within the Godhead. Truly the trinitarian God is love—and He alone.“

The Trinity

 

[Soapy]

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

It says He is before all things. Does that mean He is the first thing created?
No, it says that all things were created through Him, not all other things, so He was not created.
It says all things were created for Him,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and that is all things everywhere, visible and invisible. So the angels and any other beings are His and will be His.

Jesus wasn’t created? Then why did a senior angel come to Mary to announce THE BIRTH of a child who she must name ‘YESHUA’ (Joshua …. Jesus!)?

Why does the world (pet se) celebrate Xmas? What is the tenet behind Xmas?

Jesus proclaim the purpose of his being:

• “But he said, “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.” (Luke 4:43)

I suppose John the Baptist wasn’t created either? In fact no one at all was ever created since the Bible says:

• “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love” (Ephesians 1:4)

—————————————
The angels and any other being are his?

So why does even Satan say:

• “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “’He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” (Matt 4:6)

And Jesus says:

• “Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” (Matt 26:53)
• “Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.” (John 17:7)
• “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am” (John 17:24)

Not least of which is greater than:

• “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all” (John 10:29)

And the greatest of all:

• “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (John 28:18)

If you are still insisting that Jesus originally and always was the owner of everything then there’s a whole heap of scriptures that you will need to rewrite in ‘The fallacy scriptures book’ by Brian2!

 

[Soapy]

The plurality of the One God is revealed from the beginning and throughout the scriptures...

“The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence.

Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26
;11:7). Who is this "us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?

Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim(literally "gods") used for God repeatedly? In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [echad] Jehovah." The Hebrew word echad allows for a unity of more than one. For example, it is used in Genesis:2:24
where man and woman become one flesh; in Exodus:36:13
when the various parts "became onetabernacle"; in 2 Samuel:2:25
when many soldiers "became one troop"; and elsewhere.

Nor is the word elohim the only way in which God's plurality is presented. For example: Psalm:149:2
, "Let Israelrejoice in him that made him" (literally "makers"); Ecclesiastes:12:1
, "Remember now thy Creator (lit. "creators"); and Isaiah:54:5
, "For thy Maker is thine husband (lit. "makers, husbands"). Unitarianism has no explanation for this consistent presentation of God's plurality all through the Old Testament. Although the word "trinity" does not occur in the Bible, the concept is clearly there, providing the unity and diversity which makes possible the love, fellowship and communion within the Godhead. Truly the trinitarian God is love—and He alone.“

The Trinity

You are a little late to the party you entered into.

All the things you present have been shown to be false and discredited a long time ago.

Would you enter a Maths Doctorate class and start asking how multiplication works or that you’d discovered a way to generate Pythagorean triplets?

 

[blü 2]

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Each of the five NT versions of Jesus denies he's God and never claims to be God.

For example ─

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ​

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”​

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”​

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”​

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”​

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

If Jesus was in fact God then you get the incoherences I mentioned >above< and his entire ministry was based on a Big Lie.

It says He is before all things.

It only says that in Paul and John, whose Jesuses are gnostic-flavored. Each of them pre-existed in heaven with God and each of them created the material universe (unlike the Jesuses of Mark, of Matthew and of Luke) ─

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

and

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.​

Note that in both cases Jesus is distinct from God, pre-existed with God, and like the gnostic demiurge created the universe, whatever Genesis says.

In Mark, Jesus is an ordinary human until adopted by God when John the Baptist washes him. This is expressly on the model of David becoming son of God in Psalm 2:7 (and when I say "expressly", see as well Acts 13:33).

And that the virgin birth Jesuses in Matthew and Luke are, in the first place, not credible, and in the second place, in those particular stories, acts by God by which Jesus is brought into existence.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus wasn’t created? Then why did a senior angel come to Mary to announce THE BIRTH of a child who she must name ‘YESHUA’ (Joshua …. Jesus!)?

But you already know that Phil 2 speaks of a pre human Jesus and of Him becoming a man instead of refusing to do that.
You already know that Micah 5:2 says that the origins of Jesus is a long time before His birth on earth.
I suppose you have a bad memory and just keep going back to your default beliefs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, in one ear, out the other.

Why does the world (pet se) celebrate Xmas? What is the tenet behind Xmas?

Christmas celebrates the 1st advent of the Christ, the coming from heaven of Jesus to become a man. The stepping into creation of one who was not created.

Jesus proclaim the purpose of his being:

• “But he said, “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.” (Luke 4:43)

I suppose John the Baptist wasn’t created either? In fact no one at all was ever created since the Bible says:

• “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love” (Ephesians 1:4)

Yes there are also other reasons that Jesus came to earth as well as Luke 4:43.
John the Baptist was not the reincarnation of Elijah, and Elijah was born and had his origin in Adam and Eve.
We were not around before the creation of the world, but God foreknew us because God can see the future.

—————————————

The angels and any other being are his?

So why does even Satan say:

• “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “’He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” (Matt 4:6)

And Jesus says:

• “Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” (Matt 26:53)
• “Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.” (John 17:7)
• “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am” (John 17:24)

Not least of which is greater than:

• “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all” (John 10:29)

And the greatest of all:

• “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (John 28:18)

If you are still insisting that Jesus originally and always was the owner of everything then there’s a whole heap of scriptures that you will need to rewrite in ‘The fallacy scriptures book’ by Brian2!

It must be that bad memory of yours again that forgets that Jesus humbled Himself and became a servant, a man, who lived as other men lived and trusted God as others do. (Phil 2)
This suffering servant, on completion of His mission on earth was declared to be the Lord, which He was when a baby and even before coming to earth because He was equal to God in heaven. (Luke 2:11, Phil 2)
If Jesus on earth owned everything that are the Fathers (John 16:15) He also owned everything before He became a man. He did not complete His mission on earth and then change character and go and demand to be given what was rightly His. His character remained the same and He stayed humble before His equal, His Father, and waited for His Father to give Him what was His. So the Father gave Him the Kingdom and Kingship and the Name above all names and all power and authority and the Lordship over all. All these things were His already and the Father was really just declaring the truth about Jesus when He gave these things to Jesus. Jesus was already Lord from heaven (Luke 2:11) and after the resurrection that is what was declared to all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and that glorified the Father and will do so also when we all kneel to Jesus at His name. (Phil 2)
It seems your problem is not agreeing with the Bible when it tells us that ALL THINGS came into existence through Jesus and/or you cannot work out that this means that Jesus was not one of the things that came into existence.

 

[Soapy]

But you already know that Phil 2 speaks of a pre human Jesus and of Him becoming a man instead of refusing to do that.
You already know that Micah 5:2 says that the origins of Jesus is a long time before His birth on earth.
I suppose you have a bad memory and just keep going back to your default beliefs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, in one ear, out the other.



Christmas celebrates the 1st advent of the Christ, the coming from heaven of Jesus to become a man. The stepping into creation of one who was not created.

Yes there are also other reasons that Jesus came to earth as well as Luke 4:43.
John the Baptist was not the reincarnation of Elijah, and Elijah was born and had his origin in Adam and Eve.
We were not around before the creation of the world, but God foreknew us because God can see the future.

—————————————


It must be that bad memory of yours again that forgets that Jesus humbled Himself and became a servant, a man, who lived as other men lived and trusted God as others do. (Phil 2)
This suffering servant, on completion of His mission on earth was declared to be the Lord, which He was when a baby and even before coming to earth because He was equal to God in heaven. (Luke 2:11, Phil 2)
If Jesus on earth owned everything that are the Fathers (John 16:15) He also owned everything before He became a man. He did not complete His mission on earth and then change character and go and demand to be given what was rightly His. His character remained the same and He stayed humble before His equal, His Father, and waited for His Father to give Him what was His. So the Father gave Him the Kingdom and Kingship and the Name above all names and all power and authority and the Lordship over all. All these things were His already and the Father was really just declaring the truth about Jesus when He gave these things to Jesus. Jesus was already Lord from heaven (Luke 2:11) and after the resurrection that is what was declared to all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and that glorified the Father and will do so also when we all kneel to Jesus at His name. (Phil 2)
It seems your problem is not agreeing with the Bible when it tells us that ALL THINGS came into existence through Jesus and/or you cannot work out that this means that Jesus was not one of the things that came into existence.

Tell me, what exactly did Jesus create?

Did Jesus create mankind?

If the Father created all things then how that translate to Jesus creating all things?

What does it mean about God in this verse:

• “This is what the YHWH says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the YHWH, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,” (Isiah 44:24)

YHWH says he created all things … ‘By Myself’.

YHWH is the name of the Father. Jesus is the name of the Son of God. Where does it say anything about any other person ‘helping’ in the creation?

As for Jesus not being part of creation… I see you don’t quote anything that supports your claim that he was not … but nonetheless the verse I think you would be claiming says so DOES NOT SAY ANY SUCH THING.

The verse in question says that the son is ‘Before All things’. Once again we see that word ‘BEFORE’. It means ‘GREATER THAN’… it is not a reference to ‘Time’.

It is the same as when Jesus was asked if he was greater than Abraham. His answer was: ‘YES, I am GREATER THAN Abraham!’

And again, John the Baptist says that the one coming is GREATER THAN he.

All three times the trinitarian translators conspired to change the word(s) Greater than, into ‘BEFORE’, in order to mislead the congregation of people seeking truth in ALMIGHTY GOD, and in Jesus Christ!

 

[Brian2]

Tell me, what exactly did Jesus create?

Did Jesus create mankind?

If the Father created all things then how that translate to Jesus creating all things?

What does it mean about God in this verse:

• “This is what the YHWH says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the YHWH, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,” (Isiah 44:24)

YHWH says he created all things … ‘By Myself’.

YHWH is the name of the Father. Jesus is the name of the Son of God. Where does it say anything about any other person ‘helping’ in the creation?

As for Jesus not being part of creation… I see you don’t quote anything that supports your claim that he was not … but nonetheless the verse I think you would be claiming says so DOES NOT SAY ANY SUCH THING.

The verse in question says that the son is ‘Before All things’. Once again we see that word ‘BEFORE’. It means ‘GREATER THAN’… it is not a reference to ‘Time’.

It is the same as when Jesus was asked if he was greater than Abraham. His answer was: ‘YES, I am GREATER THAN Abraham!’

And again, John the Baptist says that the one coming is GREATER THAN he.

All three times the trinitarian translators conspired to change the word(s) Greater than, into ‘BEFORE’, in order to mislead the congregation of people seeking truth in ALMIGHTY GOD, and in Jesus Christ!

The Bible tells us that all things, invisible and visible, in heaven or earth have been created through, in, by means of Jesus and for Him.
You can figure out for yourself about if the Father created all thing, how does that translate to Jesus creating all things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but of course I did not say Jesus created all things anyway, I said that they were created through Him.
Anything to divert your thinking away from the fact that Jesus had no beginning if all things were created through Him. I guess Satan uses diversion tactics.
Isa 44:24 is just one of those OT verses which, when compared to various NT verses, shows that Jesus is YHWH. The Father and the Son are both YHWH, as Jesus said, "I and the Father are one".
When you said: As for Jesus not being part of creation… I see you don’t quote anything that supports your claim that he was not … but nonetheless the verse I think you would be claiming says so DOES NOT SAY ANY SUCH THING.

I wondered how you could say such a thing. It is so simple to see that if all things were made/created through a person, that that person cannot be one of those things that was made/created. But of course maybe you mean that Jesus was the LOGOS and was not alive but was just the words coming from the Father. But we are told that this LOGOS was the Son Heb 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

So the Logos who comes from His Father, had life as the Son and lived with God in the beginning.

 

[Soapy]

The Bible tells us that all things, invisible and visible, in heaven or earth have been created through, in, by means of Jesus and for Him.
You can figure out for yourself about if the Father created all thing, how does that translate to Jesus creating all things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but of course I did not say Jesus created all things anyway, I said that they were created through Him.
Anything to divert your thinking away from the fact that Jesus had no beginning if all things were created through Him. I guess Satan uses diversion tactics.
Isa 44:24 is just one of those OT verses which, when compared to various NT verses, shows that Jesus is YHWH. The Father and the Son are both YHWH, as Jesus said, "I and the Father are one".
When you said: As for Jesus not being part of creation… I see you don’t quote anything that supports your claim that he was not … but nonetheless the verse I think you would be claiming says so DOES NOT SAY ANY SUCH THING.

I wondered how you could say such a thing. It is so simple to see that if all things were made/created through a person, that that person cannot be one of those things that was made/created. But of course maybe you mean that Jesus was the LOGOS and was not alive but was just the words coming from the Father. But we are told that this LOGOS was the Son Heb 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

So the Logos who comes from His Father, had life as the Son and lived with God in the beginning.

Rubbish. Your presumption is that 0/0 = 1. You start with the misleading premise that Jesus was GOD living WITH God before creation.

You then claim that the Father created ALL THINGS (correct - but only because you cannot deny scriptures saying so!). Then in order to attempt to stake a claim MADE BY MAN (Trinitarians) that Jesus CREATED ALL THINGS BY HIMSELF… well, even so far that is ridiculous and false!

Can you give me an example of something being created BY SOMEONE but attributed to being created THROUGH someone else…. (There is no such saying nor act!)

Moreover, Jesus attributes EVERYTHING to the Father (and ‘Father’ means ‘He that Creates’. Notice that Jesus is never called ‘Father’, except at the END OF TIME when he ‘GIVES ETERNAL LIFE TO’ (‘Eternal Father’) those whom he deems worthy for HIS kingdom)

 

[Brian2]

Rubbish. Your presumption is that 0/0 = 1. You start with the misleading premise that Jesus was GOD living WITH God before creation.

You then claim that the Father created ALL THINGS (correct - but only because you cannot deny scriptures saying so!). Then in order to attempt to stake a claim MADE BY MAN (Trinitarians) that Jesus CREATED ALL THINGS BY HIMSELF… well, even so far that is ridiculous and false!

Can you give me an example of something being created BY SOMEONE but attributed to being created THROUGH someone else…. (There is no such saying nor act!)

Moreover, Jesus attributes EVERYTHING to the Father (and ‘Father’ means ‘He that Creates’. Notice that Jesus is never called ‘Father’, except at the END OF TIME when he ‘GIVES ETERNAL LIFE TO’ (‘Eternal Father’) those whom he deems worthy for HIS kingdom)

I do not start with but end up with the idea that the pre human Son was alive in and with His Father from eternity (in timeless existence)
YHWH created all things by Himself. But when we look at YHWH we see the Father with the Son in Him and I would also say that since God is Spirit, that the Spirit of God is also what we would see when looking at YHWH.
YHWH was alone because YHWH is one YHWH and not 3 YHWHs. The 3 are one YHWH.
In the Bible we see passages that tell us that the Spirit is YHWH and we see passages that tell us that the Son is YHWH and we already know that the Father is YHWH.
Hence I end up with a 3 in one God with the Father being called the one true God because He is the source of His Son and of His Spirit.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Haa haa ha ha haaa …..!!!

‘There are numerous verses ….!’ Yet you can only produce ONE. I suppose that ONE means THREE, to you?

Moreover, doesn’t: “thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee” make TWO in each other?

So if Jesus and the Father make Jesus GOD because The Father is in Jesus… and you then go on to say that the apostles are also in the Fathed AND JESUS… then that means the Apostles ARE GOD, too!!!

Ok, so you are wrong on that verse. Show me another that you think stands a better chance of showing a THREE IN ONE GOD!

I don't like the way you are writing to me. You are being rude and dismissive.

This may stem from the persecution you've personally experienced from being rejected by countless people who hold to the correct view of God's triunity. Please forgive them and me. Write me again if you can have a discussion instead of attacking me needlessly.