When did God tell the Israelites that He was three persons?

[Soapy]

I do not start with but end up with the idea that the pre human Son was alive in and with His Father from eternity (in timeless existence)
YHWH created all things by Himself. But when we look at YHWH we see the Father with the Son in Him and I would also say that since God is Spirit, that the Spirit of God is also what we would see when looking at YHWH.
YHWH was alone because YHWH is one YHWH and not 3 YHWHs. The 3 are one YHWH.
In the Bible we see passages that tell us that the Spirit is YHWH and we see passages that tell us that the Son is YHWH and we already know that the Father is YHWH.
Hence I end up with a 3 in one God with the Father being called the one true God because He is the source of His Son and of His Spirit.

Oh Brian2, Brian2, Brian2…. do I even need to say that what you just wrote is wholly codswallop!?

 

[Soapy]

I don't like the way you are writing to me. You are being rude and dismissive.

This may stem from the persecution you've personally experienced from being rejected by countless people who hold to the correct view of God's triunity. Please forgive them and me. Write me again if you can have a discussion instead of attacking me needlessly.

Those who are most wrong are usually the ones who claim they are being dismissed.

As I said, the entry level qualifications that you presented in your previous post do not even pass muster as proof of a trinity. Did you think you’d found a ‘Winning formula’ for trinity? No! It’s like I said, it’s like presenting an elementary algebra solution to a class of Math Majors.

God saying ‘Let us create man in our image’ is not proof of anything - Consider then that every time someone says ‘Let us…’ they mean THREE persons. Is that right?

Please outline the THREE persons the scriptures say were there. Let me start:

1. God
2. Angels (including the one who later became known as Satan)

… That’s it… ONE GOD: Almighty God! And a myriad of angels - Which scriptures say often were IN COUNCIL WITH GOD’ (Job 1:6)

Angels are the ‘Work tools’ of God. Angels are highly intelligent and immensely powerful. In fact, they have greater intelligence and power than mankind:

• “He was made a little lower than the angels..”

What can a man do against an angel of God?
What can an Angel of God do against a man?

Check the scriptures for your answers.

‘Made in the image of God’ means ‘Having intelligence, Power, love, grace, creativeness, ability to forgive, to nurture, to husband (husbandry), to design, build, to judge, to council, to know God, vanity, to desire to please and be pleased, to serve and be served, self-Willed ….’. All other created beings do not possess the fullness of the image of God.

So, who was God talking to? Himself? ‘Satan’ was the most intelligent and powerful of all the angels created by God. It was to him that God spoke about the creation of man. Notice that although God suggested the creation by council, it was GOD ALONE who blew the breathe of life into the BODY of Adam to make him a LIVING SOUL. So, Satan MADE THE BODY of Adam but GOD put a spirit into it to make it live. Angels can create a humanoid body BUT they cannot put a spirit into it to enliven it - in the later chapter we see that happen but the rebellious angels put THEMSELVES (they are living spirits, afterall) into those bodies to enliven them… and breeding with human females they created offspring called NEPHILIM (illegally Huge and Powerful beings greater than human beings authorised by God - which is why God later destroyed them!)

And why did the greatest, most glorious, and most intelligent angel God madd turn rogue? Jealousy, envy: Because he, Satan, aided in the creation of man, he, Satan, demanded to be ALSO WORSHIPPED by man…. A sinning angel is not forgivable. Therefore Satan has spent the rest of his time till now trying to justify his rebellion - even now knowing that his fate is doomed - He seeks to take as many of humankind with him to the same destination: Destruction of his snd their spirit!!

And Adam was created Holy, Sinless, Righteous: A HUMAN Son of God (Angels of God are ALSO Sinless, Holy, and Righteous: SPIRIT SONS OF GOD!)

However, since Adam sinned a great sin - giving way to the wiles of Satan - he fell away from being ‘Son of God’. And so, in the fullness of time God created A SECOND ADAM, and instructed that his name be called ‘YESHUA’ (Which is JOSHUA, which later in Greek became ‘Jesus’: ‘He who saves his people’ - Just as Joshua was the one who led the children of israel into the promised land)

But how do you answer the question as to how THE Father CREATED everything BY HIMSELF yet TRINITY says He did not… Trinity says it was Jesus who CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF…

Yet trinity also says that it was THROUGH Jesus that all things were created… BY GOD…!

If you are honest to yourself, how do you say that the above is a true and accurate belief of a testimony?

If you think anything I have written to you is wrong… please show me what if is and how you justify claiming it is wrong!

 

[Brian2]

Haa haa ha ha haaa …..!!!

‘There are numerous verses ….!’ Yet you can only produce ONE. I suppose that ONE means THREE, to you?

Moreover, doesn’t: “thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee” make TWO in each other?

So if Jesus and the Father make Jesus GOD because The Father is in Jesus… and you then go on to say that the apostles are also in the Fathed AND JESUS… then that means the Apostles ARE GOD, too!!!

Ok, so you are wrong on that verse. Show me another that you think stands a better chance of showing a THREE IN ONE GOD!

No man who starts off not being God, can become God.
Jesus is fully divine and we taste of that divinity as Peter says.
2Peter 1:4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
We are joined spiritually to Christ and God changes us to become morally like the man Jesus but we can never become fully divine like the Son of God is.
1Cor 6:16 Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.

 

[Brian2]

But how do you answer the question as to how THE Father CREATED everything BY HIMSELF yet TRINITY says He did not… Trinity says it was Jesus who CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF…

Yet trinity also says that it was THROUGH Jesus that all things were created… BY GOD…!

If you are honest to yourself, how do you say that the above is a true and accurate belief of a testimony?

If you think anything I have written to you is wrong… please show me what if is and how you justify claiming it is wrong!

You seem to twist what is said to you. I thought I had explained what you said above. Oh well I guess I did not do a good job.
I'll just say here that it is the Bible that tells us that YHWH created everything by Himself and that it is the Bible that tells us that the Father is YHWH and that Jesus is YHWH and that the Spirit is YHWH.
It's not confusing when you realise that the Bible also tells us that YHWH is one YHWH and that this "one" can be a compound "one".
I suppose if you approach what I am saying with the idea that it is wrong, that in itself probably inhibits your ability to understand it. No doubt you just skim over what I say and don't even think about it to try to understand it.

 

[Soapy]

No man who starts off not being God, can become God.
Jesus is fully divine and we taste of that divinity as Peter says.
2Peter 1:4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
We are joined spiritually to Christ and God changes us to become morally like the man Jesus but we can never become fully divine like the Son of God is.
1Cor 6:16 Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.

Brian2, you should listen (read carefully) to the very words you very things you say (write!).

The book of Revelation outlines exactly what will happen to those who engage with the Whore of Babylon.

You say that no man can become God… why did you say that? Who ever said that man can become God - who but pagans…, but yet that is exactly what Trinitarians say Jesus did!

But, Jesus did not become God… there is no scripture that suggests anything so ludicrous. Yet you try to make a suggestion that Jesus was not a man and therefore he could become God…. What an un-wonderful reverse logic - something only Satan could devise!

The truth is that not only is Jesus never God but everything Jesus became was at the pleasure of God:

• ““Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” (Acts 2:36)
• “The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.” (Acts 5:30)
• “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:38)
• “And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrews 5:4-5)

‘Today I have become your Father!’ is an adoption statement. Jesus this BECAME ‘Son of God’ after he passed the tests and temptations set before him… showing him to be a true and full ‘Doer of the works of the Father’ (which is what ‘Son [of God] means):

• “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” (Luke 2:49)
• “My nourishment comes from doing the will of God, who sent me, and from finishing his work.” (John 4:34)
• “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (John 6:29)
• “For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” (Romans 8:14)

And Jesus is the ‘Gateway’ to God, to the Father:

• “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

… a mediator (God is not a mediator - or else whom does he mediates between?)

Even Jesus being the Shepherd of the sheep OF GOD means that the Sheep BELONG TO GOD and the Shepherd is an agent, a servant, an employee, of the owner of the sheep: YHWH God, the Father.

Brian2, if you are simply playing ‘Devils Advocate’ then I’m warning you to be very careful that you don’t get trapped in Satan’s devices any further than you already are!

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, you should listen (read carefully) to the very words you very things you say (write!).

The book of Revelation outlines exactly what will happen to those who engage with the Whore of Babylon.

You say that no man can become God… why did you say that? Who ever said that man can become God - who but pagans…, but yet that is exactly what Trinitarians say Jesus did!

But, Jesus did not become God… there is no scripture that suggests anything so ludicrous. Yet you try to make a suggestion that Jesus was not a man and therefore he could become God…. What an un-wonderful reverse logic - something only Satan could devise!

The truth is that not only is Jesus never God but everything Jesus became was at the pleasure of God:

• ““Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” (Acts 2:36)
• “The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.” (Acts 5:30)
• “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:38)
• “And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” (Hebrews 5:4-5)

‘Today I have become your Father!’ is an adoption statement. Jesus this BECAME ‘Son of God’ after he passed the tests and temptations set before him… showing him to be a true and full ‘Doer of the works of the Father’ (which is what ‘Son [of God] means):

• “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” (Luke 2:49)
• “My nourishment comes from doing the will of God, who sent me, and from finishing his work.” (John 4:34)
• “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (John 6:29)
• “For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” (Romans 8:14)

And Jesus is the ‘Gateway’ to God, to the Father:

• “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

… a mediator (God is not a mediator - or else whom does he mediates between?)

Even Jesus being the Shepherd of the sheep OF GOD means that the Sheep BELONG TO GOD and the Shepherd is an agent, a servant, an employee, of the owner of the sheep: YHWH God, the Father.

Brian2, if you are simply playing ‘Devils Advocate’ then I’m warning you to be very careful that you don’t get trapped in Satan’s devices any further than you already are!

Thanks for the discussion Soapy but I figure we must both be insane if the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

 

[Soapy]

Thanks for the discussion Soapy but I figure we must both be insane if the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

It is true that after you have put all the fallacy eggs in your basket and they get crushed you have no food to eat - And nothing will ever hatch from your broken eggs.

You have fallen to the depths of saying that Jesus is YHWH since you cannot deny that YHWH is the Father. That doesn’t work.

It is said that nothing was to be made of ‘Echad’ - a ‘Compound One’!! Where did that come from…. And like the ridiculous ‘Us’ and ‘We’ means three … Sheer desperation …

The purpose of Moses’ speech to the Israelites in that verse is to qualify that the God of the Israelite; the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is THEIR ONLY GOD… ONE GOD… unlike the Pagans and Heathen tribes they encountered or lived amongst who typically worshipped three Gods (and often more…!)

It can hardly be that while the God of the Israelites is claiming to be a ONE GOD, He is also saying that he is a MULTIPLE PERSON… He has one personal identification: ‘YHWH’ - renamed as ‘LORD’ by Trinitarians who desired to refuse and confuse His eternal name even to the point of claiming that YHWH does not have a name!!!?.

How despicable to deny the Father his eternal name. But here, you agree that the Father is named ‘YHWH’… great! But then you despise the truth by claiming that Jesus Christ is ALSO NAMED YHWH… and yet even that another as yet unknown ‘GOD’ - the Spirit of the Father - is also named ‘YHWH’…! 95% truth 5% lie…. ((If the name Jesus Christ is given at the end of time is ‘Yhwh’, then it serves only to establish Jesus Christ as the ruler over the created world - it does not mean that he becomes ‘ALMIGHTY GOD: the Father’. The name above all names is an indicator of the highest rank - and ruler over creation is just such a rank … but the Father is still ‘YHWH’ God and ruler over BOTH Heaven and the created world))

How desperate are you going to get? What depth of deceit will you not fathom? I warn you that such deceit is not favourable to someone who claims to be speaking (writing) the truth of God.

But you want to walk away now that you realise your GRAVE error??!!! What? To continue the deceit with someone else who can’t defend the truth of scriptures against your devilry?

Better that you admit to perverting the truth of the true and ONLY God as rubber stamped by Jesus Christ and the Apostles of Jesus:

• “Father…. This mean eternal life that they believe in you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and in Jesus Christ whom you sent’
• “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.”

Now, even looking at the two verse above and adding in:

• ‘I and the Father are one’ (meaning their Wills agree!)

there are only TWO persons … hardly conducive to a trinity belief.

Of course, this is what comes about when the trinitarian believer is stumbling in their ‘proof’: They forget that trinity is THREE.

Of course, again, when this is pointed out they suddenly ADD IN a fictitious third person with verses that merit nothing as a qualification of truth: The Spirit of the Father IS NOT ANOTHER PERSON… any more than the spirit of Jesus is YET ANOTHER Jesus or another PERSON or another God!

Brian2, weight of untruth serves as an exercise in spiritual truth building. Muscle is built against an opposition power… You serve as that and it helps me to build my spiritual strength by opposing your untruths. So thank you… but it’s a sad thank you because it makes you an opposer to truth… and an opposer to truth is what the title ‘a Satan’ means!!!:

• ‘You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.’ (John 8:44)

 

[Watchmen]

(Oy - could somebody help me here?)

Don’t think you’re the one who needs the help.

 

[Watchmen]

It is true that after you have put all the fallacy eggs in your basket and they get crushed you have no food to eat -

False. You can still make scrambled eggs. If you have some butter and chives and maybe a little cheese, you can even make an omelette.

 

[Soapy]

False. You can still make scrambled eggs. If you have some butter and chives and maybe a little cheese, you can even make an omelette.

Not when the ‘three-parts’ of the egg have seeped through the holes in the basket!

Oh, and by the way, there are more than three parts to an egg. So there’s another trinity ‘egg’ that’s cracked wide open!!

 

[Five Solas]

There is no Jewish scripture in which God says he is one God. It doesn't exist.

What is Shema Yisrael? Where does it come from?
Do you expect to find the Shema in a mezuzah?

 

[Five Solas]

I have heard many debates about the so-called Trinity God that the greater sect of Christianity is supposed to believe in. However, I cannot find in the scriptures anywhere where God tells anyone that He is three persons.

I know that God tells the Israelites that He is ONE GOD and that they should have no other God but He…, but I can’t see anywhere where it is stated, inferred, conjectured, shown, nor proved to the Israelites, Jews, nor Christian’s, that He is three person!

Are there any such proofs, suggestions, inferences, etc….?

The Scriptures are God’s own self-revelation. It is progressive. The early biblical figures had very limited knowledge of God.

Christians believe that the Trinity is present on every page of holy Scripture, including Gen1 , however...

We should not fall prey to overinterpretation - seeing more of the Trinity than a particular passage attests. The bigger danger today is under-interpretation.

Johann Gerhard said the Trinity is present in Genesis 1 “in a manner of revelation appropriate to that time.” They did not know what we know today.

God’s self-revelation as a Trinity unfolds in two ways: -

· that which comes before Jesus’s appearance in the flesh (the self-revelation in the Old Testament)

· and that which comes after Jesus’s appearance in the flesh (the self-revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament).

The contrast is relative. The Trinity is “hidden” in the Old Testament but “manifest” more clearly in the New.

 

[Five Solas]

I have heard many debates about the so-called Trinity God that the greater sect of Christianity is supposed to believe in. However, I cannot find in the scriptures anywhere where God tells anyone that He is three persons.

I know that God tells the Israelites that He is ONE GOD and that they should have no other God but He…, but I can’t see anywhere where it is stated, inferred, conjectured, shown, nor proved to the Israelites, Jews, nor Christian’s, that He is three person!

Are there any such proofs, suggestions, inferences, etc….?

The closest we get to a direct "answer" is this:- In Matthew 28:19, Jesus commands his disciples to “go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

We do not find a developed dogma on the Trinity in Scripture. But God reveals Himself as such. The term is theological/dogmatic. It is a concept coined by a fallible theology of a fallible church. No one really understands it. Any serious Christian treads carefully around that term.

 

[Five Solas]

The Father is the only true God.

What do you mean?

 

[Five Solas]

Note though that ‘I AM’ is NOT His NAME… it is only the MEANING OF THE NAME…

It is His name - probably 'the name'...

 

[Five Solas]

For a start, each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT specifically denies that he's God and never claims to be God, only God's envoy.

What?

 

[rosends]

What is Shema Yisrael? Where does it come from?
Do you expect to find the Shema in a mezuzah?

The Sh'ma is a reference to a prayer which states the unity and uniqueness of God. It is composed of a few parts:
the first passage is Deut 6:4
That is generally followed by Deut 6:5-9, then 11:13-21 and then Numbers 15:37-41

The entire unit is recited as part of the morning and evening prayers. The Deut. sections are what is written on the parchment that is affixed to the doorposts as a mezuzah.

 

[Five Solas]

The Sh'ma is a reference to a prayer which states the unity and uniqueness of God. It is composed of a few parts:
the first passage is Deut 6:4
That is generally followed by Deut 6:5-9, then 11:13-21 and then Numbers 15:37-41

The entire unit is recited as part of the morning and evening prayers. The Deut. sections are what is written on the parchment that is affixed to the doorposts as a mezuzah.

I know what it is and, as a Christian, I wholeheartedly agree with it as well because the Scriptures are foundational to my faith in God. My question was aimed at a false statement by someone else.

 

[blü 2]

What?

There are five principal versions of Jesus in the NT ─ those of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. Each of those versions specifically denies he's God and never claims to be God.

Let me know if that's not clear enough.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What is Shema Yisrael? Where does it come from?
Do you expect to find the Shema in a mezuzah?

The wikipedia article shows the common Christian understanding: Shema Yisrael - Wikipedia which says the Shema is a prayer, the first verse of which comes from Deuteronomy 6:4 in our bibles. This is not the whole story. The Shema of today is not the Shema of yesterday, ironically; unless you believe it is. Then it is.

"Today, we understand the passage as a monotheistic declaration. However, in the Second Temple period, the Shema‘ Yisrael text in Deuteronomy would have been read “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.” -- from The Shema‘ Yisrael​

So this has 'Elohim' as Israel's god, however in Christianity we view all of the world as adopted into Israel through Christ. That is why the 'Elohim' has been translated 'God' since catholicism.

'Catholic' means 'Universal'. It changes the Elohim of Israel to the God of all those who believe, all those who join Israel through Christ. The European understanding of God has changed over time, apparently including the way that the Shema is treated in prayers. I think that there is an appeal to this catholic usage that has won Jewish people over, but it is originally a catholic usage. It could be that Jews borrowed this usage merely in order to survive in Europe and to avoid more pogroms. The reasons are beyond me. Whatever their reason, they started using 'God' in their own translated materials; but the catholics did it first. (Although the LXX uses 'Theos'. Perhaps it is not the catholics doing it first.)

What is Shema Yisrael? Where does it come from?
Do you expect to find the Shema in a mezuzah?

It is a covenant spoken in prayer. In the NIV for Deuteronomy 6: it says "Hear oh Israel the LORD our God the LORD is one" but this makes it sound declarative, like all we need to do is to hear what it says. That is not what is meant. So in adopting a more catholic ideal we have nevertheless stumbled in translation. We have made a covenant into a mere song. The words should be "Affirm this Israel, LORD elohim, LORD alone" or something like that. It is not just 'Hear'. It is a covenant, but the word literally is 'Hear'. It is the word sh'ma. But to hear has a meaning other than to receive audible sounds in the ear. To hear is to accept. The misunderstanding about 'Hear' which is the 'Shema' is because of a cultural difference between the Jews and the Greeks from which western civilization comes.

"The Mosaic books are, among other things, a set of commandments, 613 of them. That is the primary meaning of the word Torah – namely law. It would seem to follow that a book of commands must have a verb that means “to obey”, for that is the whole purpose of an imperative. Obedience stands in relation to command as truth does to statement. Yet there is no verb in biblical Hebrew that means to obey. This is an utterly astonishing fact." Covenant and Conversation - The Meanings of Shema - Rabbi Sacks on Parsha - OU Torah​