When Do We Have a Moral Right to lie?

[Sunstone]

Under what circumstances, if any, is it morally right to tell a lie? Why?

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

BONUS QUESTION: If the only way you could keep me from committing a horrendously immoral act -- such as committing suicide, burning down my neighbor's house, starting a nuclear war, and/or voting for anyone of today's presidential candidates -- was to lie to me, would you have a moral right to lie to me? Would you have a moral obligation to lie to me?

 

[Iti oj]

Under what circumstances, if any, is it morally right to tell a lie? Why?

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

BONUS QUESTION: If the only way you could keep me from committing a horrendously immoral act -- such as committing suicide, burning down my neighbor's house, starting a nuclear war, and/or voting for anyone of today's presidential candidates -- was to lie to me, would you have a moral right to lie to me? Would you have a moral obligation to lie to me?

yes
maybe
maybe
no
Yes

 

[Gharib]

This is one hadith on the matter:

Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6303:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

 

[Vultar]

This is a bit of a tricky one....

Lying is a negative act and as such will serve to decrease your energy in the afterlife. However, that being said, the bi-product of the lie could have a positive effect and therefore increase your energy in the afterlife (example, the white lie to make someone feel better) or at least break even for the loss from the lie. Generally the intent will determine the energy loss from the lie compared to the result (which could gain or lose energy depending on outcome of the lie).

I have no idea on the ratio, so don't ask (it is best to just be as truthful as possible...obviously)

____________________

Disclaimer: I don't expect anyone to believe what I write.... I'm just a messenger....

 

[Quintessence]

Yeah. This thread reminds me of why I don't like "rights" language and "morality" language in general. I prefer codes of honor that instill in us a desire to uphold certain virtues. Uphold your code and do what you feel is right given particular circumstance and a consideration of potential outcomes.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Under what circumstances, if any, is it morally right to tell a lie? Why?

When the benefit outweighs the costs.

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Sure, if the harm that is prevented is greater than the harm of lying to them.

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Yes, assuming the harm prevent outweighs the harm caused by lying.

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

See above.

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

See above.

BONUS QUESTION: If the only way you could keep me from committing a horrendously immoral act -- such as committing suicide, burning down my neighbor's house, starting a nuclear war, and/or voting for anyone of today's presidential candidates -- was to lie to me, would you have a moral right to lie to me? Would you have a moral obligation to lie to me?

See above.

 

[Vultar]

Yeah. This thread reminds me of why I don't like "rights" language and "morality" language in general. I prefer codes of honor that instill in us a desire to uphold certain virtues. Uphold your code and do what you feel is right given particular circumstance and a consideration of potential outcomes.

That is definately a good way to put it :clap

___________________

And the minstrals rejoiced.... Yay

 

[ChristineES]

Let's go back in time. It is WWII and you are hiding Jews in your house. Some Nazis come to the door and ask you if you are hiding anyone. If you tell the truth, not only will the people you are hiding be killed, you and your family will be killed, as well. So, in that case, wouldn't it be all right to tell a lie?

 

[nnmartin]

surely you can lie whenever you want as long as it's not going to cause serious unwarranted problems for another person.

I mean, why not, if you stand something to gain from it?

 

[lunakilo]

This is one hadith on the matter:

Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6303:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

Not sure I get all of it, can I persuade you to try and explain this in less fancy words?

 

[lunakilo]

surely you can lie whenever you want as long as it's not going to cause serious unwarranted problems for another person.

I mean, why not, if you stand something to gain from it?

You can lie, but is it right to do so?

By your argument, If you stand to gain something by lying it is ok as long as it doesn't cause serious unwarranted problems for others.
How do you define 'serious unwarranted problems'?
Who getst to define what 'serious unwarranted problems' are?
How do you decide that you can tell what the consequences of lying is, and that lying is sure not to cause 'serious unwarranted problems' for others?
And why is it wrong to cause 'serious unwarranted problems' for others, especially if they are not nice people?

 

[Gharib]

Not sure I get all of it, can I persuade you to try and explain this in less fancy words?

Sure,

A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good.

exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

It is permissible to forge a lie in order to reconcile 2 parties which are on bad terms with one another, just as a husband may lie to his wife regarding some matter and a wife may do the same to her husband.

and the other one is in battle, if one is captured by the enemy they are allowed to lie and answer falsely the questions of the enemy. In the Battle of the Trench between the Muslims and the Mekkans, a man from the enemy side became a Muslim during that time (the battle lasted over 20 days) so he went back to the enemy pretending to be a non-Muslim and had to speak ill of the Prophet in order to have them believe what he was saying and put doubt and divided the enemy soldiers into their respective clans until they felt treachery from the other clans who were in support of them.

As for the husband and wife, if you are married and then your partner asks if you have ever been married before or if you have ever committed any wrong before your marriage, you are permitted to answer such questions with lies if you know that the real answer will cause fighting between the 2 of you and he/she might become jealous afterwards.

 

[Prophet]

Judge good and evil with respect to action, like telling a lie, and you will be confused because good and evil are not in the action itself. Good and evil reside in motive. Tell a lie with selfless detachment from the motive, and there is no attachment for evil to cling to.

It is the same with all acts.

 

[nnmartin]

You can lie, but is it right to do so?

who cares really.

I mean, if I lie and stand to gain from it , than that must be the correct thing to do.

because if I believe I have God in me, then everything I do is correct - right?

 

[lunakilo]

Sure,

A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good.

exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

It is permissible to forge a lie in order to reconcile 2 parties which are on bad terms with one another, just as a husband may lie to his wife regarding some matter and a wife may do the same to her husband.

As for the husband and wife, if you are married and then your partner asks if you have ever been married before or if you have ever committed any wrong before your marriage, you are permitted to answer such questions with lies if you know that the real answer will cause fighting between the 2 of you and he/she might become jealous afterwards.

Seriously?! So it is all right to lie to your spouse if you have done something that you know your spouse won't like :sarcastic

I would say youe spouse is one of the people it is never ok to lie to.
I assume here that a person has chosen their spouse them selves, and thus actually wan't to be maried to that person.

I see the point in lying in order to reconcile 2 parties which are on bad terms with one another. Someone brought up the scenario about the guy who was about to press the button which would launch the nuclear bomb. If lying would make that person NOT press the button...

and the other one is in battle, if one is captured by the enemy they are allowed to lie and answer falsely the questions of the enemy. In the Battle of the Trench between the Muslims and the Mekkans, a man from the enemy side became a Muslim during that time (the battle lasted over 20 days) so he went back to the enemy pretending to be a non-Muslim and had to speak ill of the Prophet in order to have them believe what he was saying and put doubt and divided the enemy soldiers into their respective clans until they felt treachery from the other clans who were in support of them.

So lying to your enemy is ok.
Well I guess that covers the the nazies show up and ask you if you are hiding any jews-scenario

 

[lunakilo]

who cares really.

I mean, if I lie and stand to gain from it , than that must be the correct thing to do.

because if I believe I have God in me, then everything I do is correct - right?

Yes, of course, YOU are entitled to lie at all times. With God in you you can never do anything wrong.:bow:

But for the rest of us mere mortals the rules are different.

 

[Nakosis]

Under what circumstances, if any, is it morally right to tell a lie? Why?

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

BONUS QUESTION: If the only way you could keep me from committing a horrendously immoral act -- such as committing suicide, burning down my neighbor's house, starting a nuclear war, and/or voting for anyone of today's presidential candidates -- was to lie to me, would you have a moral right to lie to me? Would you have a moral obligation to lie to me?

One always has the "right" to lie. It's a choice that is always available. What stops people is either the threat of being punished for it or a instilled cultural sense of guilt.

Not to say one lie without regard to the consequences. One's actions cause effect which I think a person should be willing to be accountable for.

If I lie it is for, what I've determined, a good reason. Sometimes the truth causes unnecessary harm. Sometimes the truth will provide an adversary an advantage you'd rather they not have.

You make the call, we all live with the results. I would not blame or punish someone for lying if they had good reason for the lie.

I've no reason to lie to most people. I choose not to lie with the purpose of causing someone else harm. Not because it is right or wrong morally but because I don't have the desire to cause someone else unnecessary harm.

So if an individual has this moral sense of guilt that keeps them from lying I guess that is ok, I don't see that person as being any better or worse then anyone else. They've just been "programmed" to think a certain way by their culture/upbringing.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Under what circumstances, if any, is it morally right to tell a lie? Why?

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might prevent harm to an innocent party?

Do we have a moral right to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

Do we have not only a moral right to lie, but a moral obligation to lie when doing so might benefit the party we lie to?

BONUS QUESTION: If the only way you could keep me from committing a horrendously immoral act -- such as committing suicide, burning down my neighbor's house, starting a nuclear war, and/or voting for anyone of today's presidential candidates -- was to lie to me, would you have a moral right to lie to me? Would you have a moral obligation to lie to me?

I don't think there is any morality in a lie.

there is a reason that something is called a lie, that reason is something called the truth.

I don't think there is a circumstance where a lie may do someone benefit.

To lie for the benefit of someone else, is always a lie for the benefit of your own self satisfaction, that is you assume you have benefited someone, but its is just lying to your self and others at the same time.

 

[PolyHedral]

It is right to lie when the result will be better than the result of telling the truth.

I'll get back to when I've worked out how to decide that.

 

[4consideration]

I think that it is important to first begin with a respect for truth, along with a recognition of the intelligence of honestly viewing and reporting what we perceive in reality. So, the "morality" associated with telling the truth, involves the wisdom in accurately observing, reporting and dealing with what we actually understand to be so -- and applying that to our interactions with other people.

It is ok to lie -- when we honestly believe that the intented use of that information is to cause unjustified harm -- but it does not stretch all the way to an absolute right to use lies to avoid the consequences of our actions.

For example, if someone breaks into a person's house and says that they are going to kill the family, then asks where the child is -- that intruder has no right to the information which he intends to use for destructive purposes, and the parent is under no moral obligation to tell that intruder that the child is sleeping in his bed. The parent has the moral obligation to protect the child, and if inaccurately reporting the facts or making up a complete lie will do it to buy time (or whatever) it is completely justified without question or further qualification.

OTOH if a parent's teenage child is employed by someone and is supposed to be at work at 8:00 am, and the teenager (perhaps stayed up all night on RF or something) and is still in bed when he ought to be at work -- if the boss calls the parents and asks where their son is, the parent has the moral obligation to tell the truth -- even if it results in the teenager losing his job or being reprimanded. Simply because the results of telling the truth may appear to be negative or unpleasant, does not justify lying (and may actually be a dis-service to the child by trying to protect them from the experience of having to deal with the consequences of their actions.) In this situation, the boss has a right to the information because there was a breach of the agreement made with him regarding work time.