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When I die, what's it all about?

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
Before I leave for a rest of the afternoon meeting, I would like to share something.

I often wonder when playing with my kids, and enjoying my wife's company, why go through this, if it is for nothing? My brain or heart or something refuses to let go of the idea that there is something after death. As everyone knows right now I conclude that it is the story of the bible, but it could just as well be something else for others.
At any rate, before I was married, I lived, well a very free life. I group up with no particilar moral teachings, and experienced life to the fullest.
I have traveled almost the entire coutry of the US by the time I was 21. I have gone out of the country to see other cultures.
When I was 14 I had such a longing for the truth I started absorbing any thing I could find on philosophy, psychology, religion, etc... I was very fond of Native American ideologies, and even took mescaline and acid to experience what they might have experienced (yes starting at age 14). After this I graduated into Zen, Budha, Hindu, and other areas of Asiatic thought process.
I had lots of sex, broke the law, I was even in a rock band for most of my teenage years (guitarists). When I was 21, I ended up in prison out in the Mohave Desert, and spent a year examing my life. While in there I met a councilor that taught me psychotherapy (he was not an inmate, but staff). So after I got out a year or so later on good behavior, I went back to the east coast, and continued studying Psychotherapy, even considered a profession at this, but lost interest.
I then started studying law, and got bored. I then looked into the anatomical structure, and began looking into the medical field.

I then realized that because of my condition I was only interested in the medical field to try and fix myself. I was born with no left eye, or left ear. When I was 12, the doctors cut me open and took ribs to try and fix my face, and as a result left me with an unbalanced skeletal structure. The missing ribs never effected my performance, but was uncomfortable. So I studied enough Kinesiology, and related topics to better understand how our bodies work, and how I might improve my comfort level, as doctors didn't offer much.

Early on I was into marital arts because I could not do group sports for obvious reasons, so I did gymnastics, and martial arts. To date, I have competed in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tournaments, and always place pretty well.

At about age 15 I was exposed to Bruce Lee, and his interpretation of asian arts, and philosophy has always guided my life, and then I ran into William Durants collection indirectly from Bruce Lee's Estate Company.

OK so I have said a lot, and if you made it this far, I said all that to say this. Life is so hard, and is sometimes harder for some than others. If in fact I believed that there were no consequences to my actions in this life, and that it is all at the most mystical, or just fades to black, than what is the point? Why works so damn hard at anything?
Temporary love is the most awful thing on this planet. Though I am skipping all over the place, I cant help but wonder what those who believe in nothing really think about right before they die, if they have time to think at all, or have their faculties.

There just has to be something else out there, for you and for me, and for my kids sake, and for all thr precious lives we interact with everyday. I simply have to believe... As some of you well know I am here on this forum trying to debunk my beliefs, looking for solid proof against my beliefs, but just keep running up a steep mountain that is full of loose gravel.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
As some of you well know I am here on this forum trying to debunk my beliefs, looking for solid proof against my beliefs, but just keep running up a steep mountain that is full of loose gravel.

If you don't require solid proof for your beliefs to begin with, then a search for solid proof against your beliefs seems quite disingenuous.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Hi itwillend,

You have nicely encapsulated the lure of religion.

"Surely there must be more than this. Surely some higher power is guiding/protecting/rewarding us. Why do all this work, go through all this misery, only to die for ........ nothing."

Speaking as an agnostic, I sincerely hope that there is an afterlife, but I don't count on one, nor do I make life decisions based on faith that I will be rewarded for X or Y actions. I act as a good person. As my own moral/human guidelines direct me. Confident that IF there is a God, and it rewards me for being good, then well & fine. If I fade to black, then I really won't care.
But if it punishes me for being a good person, simply due to the human edicts of some arbitrary "religion/church/etc...". Then that "god" IS evil, and I will gladly spend the rest of eternity doing my "damnedest" :D to utterly destroy this "satanic" creature that fousts itself upon the universe as THE TRUE creator/overseer.

Bottom line is there in your own last paragraph.
.....I simply have to believe... As some of you well know I am here on this forum trying to debunk my beliefs, looking for solid proof against my beliefs, but just keep running up a steep mountain that is full of loose gravel.
No you don't. In both senses of the words.
1. You don't HAVE to believe anything without proof.
2. You should not be looking for "proof against my beliefs", but rather, try to find SOLID proof that your faith is well-placed. (Yes, of course I'm aware that "faith" and "proof" are mutually exclusive words....... and perhaps that alone should give you pause to think.;) )


P.S. - Your signature. "The FEAR of God is the beginning of wisdom". Why in blazes would you ever have to FEAR a benevolent and all-forgiving God? :shrug:
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Originally Posted by itwillend I often wonder when playing with my kids, and enjoying my wife's company,......

What's "out there" is actually in front of you always, staring you directly in the face, by playing around and enjoying your company. ;)

It is everything you say, do, and experience from moment to moment. U.C. ? -NM-
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
The need to believe something does not make the thing real, no matter how comforting the belief.

Yeah that about sums up this thread: comfort =/= truth.

New question: When an ant dies, what's it all about?
 
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Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
If you don't require solid proof for your beliefs to begin with, then a search for solid proof against your beliefs seems quite disingenuous.
Everone's points are great, but your's has prompted a response.
In my life experience, I can only reflect upon what is availale to me as to form conclusions.
As such, I have reflcted my life experiences off many things over the course of many years, as everyone on here has done. In my particular life I have purposely sought to experience everything under the sun if possible. I set out to do this at an early age. This path is not for everyone, but I wanted to know the mind of evil and good, immoral and moral in every conceivable way. So I have taken part in many good things and many bad things. Mind you I had no experience with the bible or concept of God in the bible until age 18. I am sure I stayed away from it because of the thought of looking like church people, or better said fake people. As I was on a mission to be as real as possible and that seemed to be the farthest thing from real. I did not yet know the difference in church and the bible. Of course I had heard the basics of the bible but they just never meant anything.
As a result of directly looking for experience either good or evil, I don't have much left to experience, save death.
I have tried life sober and high. I have watched life being born, and I have watched the brains fall out of my best friend, when he was attacked, and died at the OR. I have cheated on, and been cheated on. I have attempted suicide, and stopped others from doing the same. I have done acts of vigilanty, and I have been caught by others doing the same thing I tried to to stop. I have lived on the street, in the desert, in a cloet, under a bush, in a prison cell, on the beach of San Diego, and the Keys of Florida all by age 18. needless to say my mother had grey hair early.
You name it I probably tried to do it. When i went through all of this and then reflect on what it all meant, I have to admit there isn't a philosophy or explanation for what I felt.
I the read Ecclesiatics, and it all made sense. The bible by itself, started mirroring my human experince. I had never been violated like that before, and here I was exposed and finally confronted with reality.
I don't think the bible would have ever meant anything to me had I not gone through what I went through in a whirlwind of 21 years.
What does this have to do with your post? There are no more philosophies for me to study under th sun, that I can reflect my experience upon, and as such I have the proof of the bible in the experiences of my life. Nothing else out there can explain what I went through, and I don't think any other religion or philosophy out there is set up in a way to reflect my experience. So, in the bible I stay fo now. So here I am trying to pick away at the product of my human experience. In all fairness, I do require proof of both points you say I do not.
Thanks
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
Everone's points are great, but your's has prompted a response.
In my life experience, I can only reflect upon what is availale to me as to form conclusions.
As such, I have reflcted my life experiences off many things over the course of many years, as everyone on here has done. In my particular life I have purposely sought to experience everything under the sun if possible. I set out to do this at an early age. This path is not for everyone, but I wanted to know the mind of evil and good, immoral and moral in every conceivable way. So I have taken part in many good things and many bad things. Mind you I had no experience with the bible or concept of God in the bible until age 18. I am sure I stayed away from it because of the thought of looking like church people, or better said fake people. As I was on a mission to be as real as possible and that seemed to be the farthest thing from real. I did not yet know the difference in church and the bible. Of course I had heard the basics of the bible but they just never meant anything.
As a result of directly looking for experience either good or evil, I don't have much left to experience, save death.
I have tried life sober and high. I have watched life being born, and I have watched the brains fall out of my best friend, when he was attacked, and died at the OR. I have cheated on, and been cheated on. I have attempted suicide, and stopped others from doing the same. I have done acts of vigilanty, and I have been caught by others doing the same thing I tried to to stop. I have lived on the street, in the desert, in a cloet, under a bush, in a prison cell, on the beach of San Diego, and the Keys of Florida all by age 18. needless to say my mother had grey hair early.
You name it I probably tried to do it. When i went through all of this and then reflect on what it all meant, I have to admit there isn't a philosophy or explanation for what I felt.
I the read Ecclesiatics, and it all made sense. The bible by itself, started mirroring my human experince. I had never been violated like that before, and here I was exposed and finally confronted with reality.
I don't think the bible would have ever meant anything to me had I not gone through what I went through in a whirlwind of 21 years.
What does this have to do with your post? There are no more philosophies for me to study under th sun, that I can reflect my experience upon, and as such I have the proof of the bible in the experiences of my life. Nothing else out there can explain what I went through, and I don't think any other religion or philosophy out there is set up in a way to reflect my experience. So, in the bible I stay fo now. So here I am trying to pick away at the product of my human experience. In all fairness, I do require proof of both points you say I do not.
Thanks

The bold statement is where I see a problem. You've had some interesting experiences, but why do you assume that there must be some greater, perhaps God-given, meaning behind your experiences?
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
The bold statement is where I see a problem. You've had some interesting experiences, but why do you assume that there must be some greater, perhaps God-given, meaning behind your experiences?

Oh, well it simply lies with the fact the bible so closely mirrors my experiences, and how I feel about my experiences, that I conclude it is not a coinicidence. If not a coincidence, than the idea of God becomes real to me, but as has already been pointed out, this is not something that can be demonstrated outwardly for all to see, so is therefor subjective.

Example, we all know the good ol story of the tree of good and evil. We all know the story in Ecclisiastis, that John Lennon so wonderfully made into a song. There are many things familiar in the bible to us that we take for granted. However when you go through life and commit deliberate acts of evil or deliberate acts of good, the resulting experience is such that we can begin to see the true nature of humans and their responses. If we do this enough a pattern begins to form. When patterns form, predictablity forms, and when predictabillity forms, we now have something measurable. Not proof, or guarentees, but patterns that don't very too often.
These patterns of human behaviour are what I see reflected in the bible more so than anywhere else. Also, reflected in my life are the same experiences and responses. The logic behind the teachings in the bible, and the examples of human experience in the bible, make it absolutely one of a kind. Not to many dispute that, even if they don't believe in the divinity of the bible.

So the only reaons I would give credence to God given meaning to my experiences, is because of the way the bible reflected my life. Remember I have looked elsewhere, and looked into the bible eventually, just to make sure I hadn't missed something, and there I have been ever since.

Also, know that I had these views on life long before I picked up the bible. Which I suppose is why it was unnerving to be staring at something that mirrored my own judgements about my human experience. Does that make sense?
 
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CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
There are countless works of fiction with which I can relate, but that doesn't mean the characters really existed or the events really happened. Nor should I assume those works of fiction contain the word of God.
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
Good stuff from the book you mentioned that refers to the thread title:
Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 said:
Humans and animals have the same destiny. One dies just like the other. All of them have the same breath [of life]. Humans have no advantage over animals. All [of life] is pointless.
All [life] goes to the same place. All [life] comes from the ground, and all of it goes back to the ground.
Who knows whether a human spirit goes upward or whether an animal spirit goes downward to the earth?
Essentially answers the question of what happens when we die with ‘fuсk knows’ and a healthy dose of nihilist like realism. Surprised no one brought that up.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
More from the same:
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 said:
But all who are among the living have hope, because a living dog is better than a dead lion.
The living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything. There is no more reward for the dead when the memory of them has faded.
Their love, their hate, and their passions have already vanished. They will never again take part in anything that happens under the sun.
 
Oh, well it simply lies with the fact the bible so closely mirrors my experiences, and how I feel about my experiences, that I conclude it is not a coinicidence.

Interesting posts, and thanks for sharing.

To expand upon what CarlinKnew was saying, it is no surprise whatsoever that the bible might speak to you as a human being. It's because it contains questions and concerns that humans have shared for a long time, and was written by relatively smart, sensitive, creative, literate humans of their time.

Religion is created to relate to us, because it's created by us and for us.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
Interesting posts, and thanks for sharing.

To expand upon what CarlinKnew was saying, it is no surprise whatsoever that the bible might speak to you as a human being. It's because it contains questions and concerns that humans have shared for a long time, and was written by relatively smart, sensitive, creative, literate humans of their time.

Religion is created to relate to us, because it's created by us and for us.

Than I would have to conclude the smartest of all minds wrote the bible, because in my experience it is so perfect a reflection of my life. So perfect indeed, it almost seems like it was written by G..... nah, I won't say it;)
 

3.14

Well-Known Member
well it seems like you just did to much in to short amount of time, most people spread what you did out over an entire life for maximum enjoyment, no wonder you seek guidance in area's unexplorable by people, there the only threshold you haven't passed yet
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
well it seems like you just did to much in to short amount of time, most people spread what you did out over an entire life for maximum enjoyment, no wonder you seek guidance in area's unexplorable by people, there the only threshold you haven't passed yet
So it seems, but since I believe the world will end May 21st 2011, there isn't much more time anyway.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I often wonder when playing with my kids, and enjoying my wife's company, why go through this, if it is for nothing? My brain or heart or something refuses to let go of the idea that there is something after death. As everyone knows right now I conclude that it is the story of the bible, but it could just as well be something else for others.
Isn't playing with your kids and enjoying your wife's company enough?
I certainly would hardly call those things "nothing".. Indeed they are the most important things I can think of. I would rather have one life filled with such simple joys than an eternity of the monotony that passes as heaven.

wa:do
 
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