When Should Women Obey Their Husbands?

[Robert.Evans]

I was waiting for somebody to come in and spell out the rebelliousness of women because it was all Eve's fault. I hope you realize that perspectives such as this created the scapegoating culture that we continue to see to this day where any fault of a husband is blamed on his wife. She didn't listen, obey, respect, honor, love enough...and this placed the entire family and the marriage in a bad place.

Scapegoating is a dangerous practice, and one that results in the dehumanization of women in this manner. Dehumanization results in assault, rape, and murder among other things. I think one must be very very careful when painting with such a broad brush.

The Chavvah (Eve) is within higher-consciousness of the divine. (that is the short answer). You are right, no one (and that includes women) should blame someone else for their OWN mistakes. Adam did not do that.

Sounds great until it's put in practice. Who decides when he is being a bump in the sofa, if he has praised her up and down enough, if he has expressed love to her enough?

In these cases, it is the perspective and the "leadership" of the husband who decides if he has loved her enough or if he really is treating her like a slave.

That seems to be a dumb thing to say. Over exaggeration.

Ever read the stories of the women who escaped the Quiverfull movement? The ones who take the male headship from the Bible to the letter? It's horrific. The abuse, rape, and sometimes torture at the hands of their ex-husbands who claim headship in all spheres of the family's public and private lives is not to be taken lightly.

That does not mean that the law and text is wrong, that means some people, in this instance, men, abused it. That is the same in all spheres of life. The woman is not bound by the man if he is not keeping the law in the first place. Though I am insterested as I have not heard of this,.. got a link?

Who decides if his decision is against scripture?

Who decides if a decision is against her conscience is really a matter of ethics or if a wife is simply in rebellion?

Do you really know what happens in these conversations? If the husband must always be the one to make a final decision...on everything...and considers himself as always acting out of love, this places his wife in a very very bad predicament and one where her conscience is considered wrong if not in line with his.



Damned straight most wives don't accept that. And it's very fortunate we don't accept that. There was a reason why domestic violence shelters were opened beginning a couple generations ago. It's because these types of relatonships when left unchecked open themselves to all kinds of abuse of power.

Most people, men and women, are happy to have more give-and-take with each other. Power-distinct relationships are not as common as egalitarian relationships.

No one, i think, is saying that the woman just waits there to be told what to do. It is within the law of God. See above.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Is that a violent streak I sense here? Or are you just joking?

Sounds like a joke to me.
But aren't you the one that encourages women to assault men?

 

[Sunstone]

But aren't you the one that encourages women to assault men?

Does your religion condone or encourage bearing false witness against others now?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Ah, thank you so much for replying. That does make it clear I am here mainly with teens. and twenty something I for a moment thought to find a mature conversation here 'on topic' about religions in depth which I do find very interesting. I guess I am indeed at the wrong forum. If this is how people react in general, indeed I'll just quit my account in 1 or 2 days. In real life, I find much better conversations.

No stop.... there are plenty of good discussions going on here.

 

[Robert.Evans]

And how exactly does this myth

It is not a myth. Bad start.

- which says Adam and Chav'vah get a punishment, - somehow spread to all other women whom have not eaten of that tree? And I might add - only women!

Because they are part of the feminine, and Chavvah IS the feminine. You part of that same tree.

If it extends to future people, - How dare Men leave off toiling in the in the thorns and thistles?

You think we still are not? I see plenty of thorns and thistles about.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

*

 

[Robert.Evans]

Dude, you are turning this into a male versus female thread, - stop.


*

Haha... so, ''dude'' when a man gives an answer you don't like, he is ruining the thread is he? Funny. I think you will find it is on topic, madam.

 

[Robert.Evans]

What problem do you have with different?

We are discussing reality - bigger does not make you superior.

I could say as a female I'm superior - as I can produce new humans - without a male. New technology has shown that since I have the eggs, a second female DNA can be added to the egg resulting in a brand new different female baby, No male needed.

However, it would be just as ridiculous for me to say this makes me superior, as it is for males to say size makes them superior.

*

But you have jsut said that you could do just that! And indeed, you would be on that front alone. And yes, size does make one superior. But, do I have to spell it out? If one wants to go the whole hog, it does not mean they are superior in everything. I would have thought that obvious. You have too much of a problem with the Bible and men I think.

 

[Robert.Evans]

BULL! You are just different.

The only ''BULL'' is coming from your side. And, may I add, it is differences that make one better than another, and therefore, superior. Get it?

Again - I could say females are superior, as they can produce new humans without men.

I have already answered that.

There is actually an old SiFi show about this very subject. Wish I could remember the name.

PS. Wars should be avoided by ALL.

Yes, but then you say......

However when unavoidable, both male and female should fight. Women have said this for a long time.

*

We are not supposed to kill. Period. I don't know of any women (though I know there are a few) who just can't wait to go to war and come back with no legs. Perhaps it's just the people you know, or some sort of delusion to make yourself at the level of men. Personally I find it sad that you keep comparing yourself with men. Why do you want to come down to our level? Do you think we are superior or something?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Why would I when we were not discussing it?


*

Why would you if it does not hlep your case. ?

 

[Robert.Evans]

That is the Christian - Man as head idea - which I do not agree with, nor am I a Christian.

The idea that men need to be in charge of women is just bull.

Man is the HEAD of woman, not IN CHARGE of woman.

I was raised, CORRECTLY, just like the guys. I hike, boat, fish, hunt, and brink home the bacon, without need of any male.

You say correctly and then you say your hunt. Hunt as in kill? And that is correct to you? Do you live in a cave? And if you do indeed mean what you say, I think you will be hunting from the knowledge that men have acquired, and probably with a rifle, made by men, yet yoy say you don't need men. You are from this planet are you.

Do I have a male partner? Yes. Two. Because it is not about they or I being superior, or in charge of the other.

It is about mutual respect, and love.

*

No it is about lust and adultery... which is what you are doing, and absolutely nothing to do with love.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Married to a male? or a female?

*

haha.... one cannot be ''married'' to the same gender. We may pretend that we are, and we may put it into mans laws, but it is not possible to join male and male nor female and female. That is to adulterate something. I see from your last few comments why you hate the Bible so much.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Does your religion condone or encourage bearing false witness against others now?

We shall wait for the reply, then we shall see

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The Chavvah (Eve) is within higher-consciousness of the divine. (that is the short answer). You are right, no one (and that includes women) should blame someone else for their OWN mistakes. Adam did not do that.

That seems to be a dumb thing to say. Over exaggeration.

That does not mean that the law and text is wrong, that means some people, in this instance, men, abused it. That is the same in all spheres of life. The woman is not bound by the man if he is not keeping the law in the first place. Though I am insterested as I have not heard of this,.. got a link?

No one, i think, is saying that the woman just waits there to be told what to do. It is within the law of God. See above.

One story told by the founder of "No Longering Quivering":

Vyckie Garrison on escaping "Quiverfull."

More voices of women escaping the same extremist mindset:

NLQ Voices

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Sounds like a joke to me.
But aren't you the one that encourages women to assault men?

Oh that's right. You thought I was teaching my daughter to be violent by having her train in martial arts.

For self defense.

I'm not surprised you conflate a woman or a girl defending herself against anybody physically battering her to be an assault against that other person. You've done that before.

I disagree. I'd rather a woman punch a man in the face who is currently trying to choke her to death than "be the godly woman" and allow the man to kill her. If you see that behavior of a woman as an assault, that speaks a lot about what you think of women.

I stand by my decision to enroll my daughter into martial arts. I have less to worry about with her safety. I too have trained in hand-to-hand combat and weapons training in edge weapons and firearms. I think training in self-defense is empowering and invaluable to women and men alike.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Does your religion condone or encourage bearing false witness against others now?

As I'd stated, in the past I've discussed how I encouraged my daughter to train in self-defense. The rest is spelled out in my previous post. I don't believe false witness is being practiced. Just an embarrassingly conflating of scope into how women are supposed to act in the face of assault/battery and rape.

It's no surprise IMO given the views expressed in this thread and in others how women are expected to act. When I am personally in the presence of such views, I embrace my "Jezebel" nature and release her with full force.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Oh that's right. You thought I was teaching my daughter to be violent by having her train in martial arts.

For self defense.

I'm not surprised you conflate a woman or a girl defending herself against anybody physically battering her to be an assault against that other person. You've done that before.

I disagree. I'd rather a woman punch a man in the face who is currently trying to choke her to death than "be the godly woman" and allow the man to kill her. If you see that behavior of a woman as an assault, that speaks a lot about what you think of women.

I stand by my decision to enroll my daughter into martial arts. I have less to worry about with her safety. I too have trained in hand-to-hand combat and weapons training in edge weapons and firearms. I think training in self-defense is empowering and invaluable to women and men alike.

So we disagree on that also then.
I don't think having one person being aggressive and fighting is helped by making another do the same. My answer is stay away from those people.
If we bring them up right in the first place, then they might not even end up that way.
And anyone who is asaulting should be dealt with through the courts.
It is interesting though, that you see things as so drastic as '' choking someone to death''. You don't consider that they are in the wrong place with the wrong people? And i seriously doubt whether it would be any use if in a real situation, rather more to do with making her more confident perhaps which might in turn put her in the wrong situation in the first place. And have you never consided that if you do that, some men might decided to be even more aggressive? Risky road that you are building I think.

 

[Robert.Evans]

As I'd stated, in the past I've discussed how I encouraged my daughter to train in self-defense. The rest is spelled out in my previous post. I don't believe false witness is being practiced. Just an embarrassingly conflating of scope into how women are supposed to act in the face of assault/battery and rape.

It's no surprise IMO given the views expressed in this thread and in others how women are expected to act. When I am personally in the presence of such views, I embrace my "Jezebel" nature and release her with full force.

I don't think anyone is saying you can't defend yourself. But to teach people to fight rather than keep out of the ring seems wrong

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't defend yourself. But to teach people to fight rather than keep out of the ring seems wrong

You have no idea what is taught in self defense then. The first thing you are taught is how to de-escalate. The philosophy is to ensure nobody gets hurt, or do the least damage possible.

This isn't the first time you have blamed the victim however when a perpetrator successfully attacks his or her target.

Disagree all you want, Robert. I find my approach to be much more pragmatic. Especially in a situation where my word "stop" makes somebody see red and rage takes over on their part.

 

[savagewind]

It is wrong to blame crime on the person who is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Surely you don't believe it has never happened that a crime is committed against a person in the right place at the right time? I did not teach my children martial arts because it is against Jehovah Witness policy. (It is within JW policy to keep pediofiles around secretly though) But I did oversee them diligently whenever I was in public. If they ever got away from me I freaked! (My son use to hide under clothing racks) I knew that if they got lost and found by an evil man or woman I would not be able to live with that. I admire parents who teach their children confidence, strength, and self defence. Even in a perfect world where there is no crime against innocence I think confidence, strength, and self defence is good to know.

If all women were taught confidence, strength, and self defence women would be less likely to end up married to brutes I think.

 

[Revoltingest]

My answer is stay away from those people.
:
And anyone who is asaulting should be dealt with through the courts.

The problem with this view is that victims are typically assaulted when they don't expect it. So by the time it occurs, to just stay from the assailant isn't an option. Moreover, it usually isn't in a court room, where a bailiff or marshal could defend them. So for those of us who believe in the right to self defense, this responsibility falls to us. To prepare for a violent encounter makes sense.