When was "the Messiah" first mentioned in scripture?

[Colt]

I'm curious how Jews and Christians answer this question? At times I have found the references that Christians make to scriptures which they believe refer to the Messiah or Jesus as Messiah to be very thin, even odd!

*** Have Jews traditionally interpreted Genesis 3:15 as a reference to the Messiah?

*** In Judaism when do they see the first revelation of a coming Messiah?

What abot Christians, where do you first see a specific reference to a Messiah in scripture?

 

[dybmh]

*** Have Jews traditionally interpreted Genesis 3:15 as a reference to the Messiah?

No, because "seed" is not an individual but all future progeny of Eve.

*** In Judaism when do they see the first revelation of a coming Messiah?

Many people read "until Shiloh" (Genesis 49:10) as an allusion to a unique individual permanent ruler. As far as I know this is the earliest mention. But it's extremely ambiguous.

 

[nPeace]

No, because "seed" is not an individual but all future progeny of Eve.

Many people read "until Shiloh" (Genesis 49:10) as an allusion to a unique individual permanent ruler. As far as I know this is the earliest mention. But it's extremely ambiguous.

That would suggest that Shiloh was appointed, or predestined to that office. So we could ask the question, when?

 

[dybmh]

That would suggest that Shiloh was appointed, or predestined to that office. So we could ask the question, when?

Sure, many people ask when.

 

[nPeace]

Sure, many people ask when.

So, when?

 

[dybmh]

So, when?

There's a famous story:

Rosh Ha-Shanah, 1747: “I [the Baal Shem Tov] asked the Messiah, ‘When will you come, master,’ and he answered me, ‘When your learning will be made known and revealed to the world and its source will spread and all can recite yiḥudim [unifications] and experience spiritual ascent as you can…’ and I was astonished and deeply grieved by this, and wondered when this would come to pass”

Baal Shem Tov - Wikipedia

 

[nPeace]

There's a famous story:

Rosh Ha-Shanah, 1747: “I [the Baal Shem Tov] asked the Messiah, ‘When will you come, master,’ and he answered me, ‘When your learning will be made known and revealed to the world and its source will spread and all can recite yiḥudim [unifications] and experience spiritual ascent as you can…’ and I was astonished and deeply grieved by this, and wondered when this would come to pass”

Baal Shem Tov - Wikipedia

I didn't ask when would the Messiah come.
I asked, when was the Messiah appointed or predestined to come.

In other words. "Until Shiloh" was appointed before Genesis 49:10. God knew who Shiloh was before.
So, when did God arrange for Shiloh?

 

[dybmh]

I didn't ask when would the Messiah come.
I asked, when was the Messiah appointed or predestined to come.

Oopsie-doopsie, sorry about that. *blush*

That's actually a much less common question. The answer is given as part of a legend: 2000 years before creation, the name of the Moshiach, the anointed future king, was established. But these legends are late additions to the story.

Legends of the Jews 1:1:1

 

[nPeace]

Oopsie-doopsie, sorry about that. *blush*

That's actually a much less common question. The answer is given as part of a legend: 2000 years before creation, the name of the Moshiach, the anointed future king, was established. But these legends are late additions to the story.

Legends of the Jews 1:1:1

Whoa. Some story.
I'll stick with Genesis 3:15.
It is followed by a harmonious line. Genesis 3:15 -> Genesis 22:18 -> Genesis 49:10 -> Galatians 3:16

 

[dybmh]

Whoa. Some story.

I know, I know, lol

I'll stick with Genesis 3:15.

Naturally.

It is followed by a harmonious line. Genesis 3:15 -> Genesis 22:18 -> Genesis 49:10

The link to Gen 49:10 seems ... absent.

Galatians 3:16

This one gets the eye-roll. If Paul wants to be hyper-literal, then he needs to be consistently hyper-literal. A hyper-literal approach to the verse disqualifies Jesus as:

1. Pre-existing with God before creation
2. The creator of all things
3. The son of God

 

[Colt]

Whoa. Some story.
I'll stick with Genesis 3:15.
It is followed by a harmonious line. Genesis 3:15 -> Genesis 22:18 -> Genesis 49:10 -> Galatians 3:16

Jesus was forced into a number of places in the OT scriptures that had not previously been thought of in Judaism as messianic. Gen 3:15 is the most bizarre of them all.

 

[nPeace]

This one gets the eye-roll. If Paul wants to be hyper-literal, then he needs to be consistently hyper-literal. A hyper-literal approach to the verse disqualifies Jesus as:

1. Pre-existing with God before creation
2. The creator of all things
3. The son of God

Not sure how you disqualified number 3.

 

[dybmh]

Not sure how you disqualified number 3.

Does Eve procreate with God?

 

[nPeace]

Jesus was forced into a number of places in the OT scriptures that had not previously been thought of in Judaism as messianic. Gen 3:15 is the most bizarre of them all.

I can understand why it is that way to you.
Jesus is not the seed though, but I am curious as to why you would find it bizarre.

 

[nPeace]

Does Eve procreate with God?

Eve has nothing to do with the prophecy. In the same way a literal snake has nothing to do with the prophecy. See Revelation 12.

 

[dybmh]

Eve has nothing to do with the prophecy. In the same way a literal snake has nothing to do with the prophecy. See Revelation 12.

Galatians requires a hyper-literal understanding of the word seed. Here's the verse:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.​

Who's seed? It's Eve's seed. That's literally what it says.

Resectfully, referring me to Revelations is changing the subject, and switching to a different author.

Here's what Paul says:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
​

Ummm He saith not seed of God neither, He saith seed of Eve.

​

Just about anyone can understand that "seed" is referring to her offspring, plural. Here it is on the JW website:

So, if Paul is going to be hyper-literal about the word "seed" he also needs to be hyper-literal about who's seed that is. It's Eve's seed literally. Thus Christ is not the son of God without adding to or changing the story.

It's perfectly fine to go non-literal with the prophecy, but then the entire prophecy needs to allow a non-literal approach which means, the seed of Eve could be the progeny of Eve, not just one person.

 

[Colt]

I can understand why it is that way to you.
Jesus is not the seed though, but I am curious as to why you would find it bizarre.

Because the fragmented narrative concerning the descendants of Eves 2 different blood lines battling it out over the ages has nothing to do with the foreshadowing of the Jewish Messiah.

 

[rosends]

I'm curious how Jews and Christians answer this question? At times I have found the references that Christians make to scriptures which they believe refer to the Messiah or Jesus as Messiah to be very thin, even odd!

*** Have Jews traditionally interpreted Genesis 3:15 as a reference to the Messiah?

*** In Judaism when do they see the first revelation of a coming Messiah?

What abot Christians, where do you first see a specific reference to a Messiah in scripture?

what "messiah" do you mean? The concept of a communal leader anointed with particular oil? That gets covered in the 5 books in discussions of the high priest.

Do you mean some future king? Because kings were also anointed (and therefore, "messiahs"). Look in the biblical discussion of the anointing of kings like Saul or David.

 

[Colt]

what "messiah" do you mean? The concept of a communal leader anointed with particular oil? That gets covered in the 5 books in discussions of the high priest.

Do you mean some future king? Because kings were also anointed (and therefore, "messiahs"). Look in the biblical discussion of the anointing of kings like Saul or David.

Whatever the "Messiah" was that was expected at the times of Jesus. The same Messiah that the Jewish people say that Jesus was not!

SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS


Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.

When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).
This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.

Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.

The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment.

No matter how many unusual & miraculous things Jesus seems to accomplish in the New Testament, he doesn't fulfill even one of the 6 criteria by which the Nation of Israel can recognize him as the true Jewish Messiah.

 

[rosends]

Whatever the "Messiah" was that was expected at the times of Jesus. The same Messiah that the Jewish people say that Jesus was not!

Are you looking for explicit biblical mention, clear mishnaic mention or traditional interpretation?