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When was there free WILL ?

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dan p

Member
Hi to all , and most believers today say that as a people , we all have free will !

To me , the only ones that had free will was Lucifer and the angels that fell with Lucifer .

The other two , were Adam and Eve .

Today , we are dead in Trespasses and Sins .

In 1 Cor 2:14 , But the Natural man received not the things of the Spirit God for they are foolishness unto him , NEITHER can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned .

It is by Election and Grace of God .
 
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stlekee

Fool for Wisdom
God gives us the choice - to love him or not. That is free will. God does not demand love, love cannot be demanded or forced, LOVE is a choice. God does not want robots, he wants people who love him because they choose to. Its all about attutude: in your heart of hearts, do you love the world and its people and God, or are you a hater?

This is the question each has to honestly answer for themself.
 
javajo

javajo

Well-Known Member
God so loved the world...whosoever calls on his name may be saved...he is not willing that any should perish. We all have free will to accept or deny Christ. For those who do accept him, God already knows it (foreknows, he knows the future), wrote our names in the book of life, and has predestined, called, justified and glorified us so nothing can take us out of his hand.

Romans 8:29-31 (King James Version)
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
 
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stlekee

Fool for Wisdom
Hi Javajo, not sure I can agree with the predestination/choosen idea. If God already has his choosen picked, then why is everyone else necessary? Just to go to hell? So the idea is that a loving God creates billions of people to go to hell so his elect can truly feel 'choosen'? This is the arrogance and dark heartedness of christans that turns so many away. And if your response is that its God's plan, you might want to look into your own heart and see that its your choice to believe this foul, arrogant, hateful 'plan', and then pass it off as God's.
This whole concept comes from a dark hearted man who claimed to be a christian, Calvin, just another angry hater. I suggest that those who believe this doctrine may be haters also, hoping for the vast majority of souls to burn or perish in a grotesque way. This sounds more like the religion of satan than God.
My belief is that all religions come from man as attempts to understand the world and our place in it. The arrogance of all religions is the belief that they have God all figured out, basically making God subservient to our beliefs and religions. If you truly believe in an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God, then how can descriptions, definitions, limitations, theology be placed on him by us?
 
javajo

javajo

Well-Known Member
That is not at all what my post said. I said God so loved the world...whosoever calls on his name may be saved...he is not willing that any should perish. We all have free will to accept or deny Christ. You may be thinking of hyper-calvinism, which I do not believe. People who believe that don't see any point in sharing the Gospel since according to them, those who God elected will be saved some how or another. I don't buy that. I believe everyone may be saved. God loves all of us and sent his son to die for us so all we have to do is trust him. We can choose (Free Will) to reject him, but there is no plan B for someone who consciously chooses not to believe in Christ. We have a holy God, but we are not holy, not even close. So he loved us and provided the way. That is my belief and that is the common belief of Christianity. The predestination deal just means God saw who accepted Christ and now they have assurance of salvation, sealed by the Spirit, the down payment of the Holy Ghost.
 
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stlekee

Fool for Wisdom
I guess you can tell I'm not much for 'election'. I have struggled with the idea of getting free will and predestination to 'fit' together. I do believe in a timeless God who knows all; past, present, future. This means he knows what we do, think and believe in the future. So I get the idea of predestination.

Then we have free will, the God giving gift of choice. We are free to choose at all times whether to accept God's will or not. In fact we are free at all times to choose all our behaviors, attitudes, thoughts. We do develop patterns over time, and other factors that influence decisions, but free will it is.

So God knows what the future holds, but I don't. So for me there IS free will. Its a paradox, God knows ahead of time what my free will is. I can't get my head around this yet...hmmm Perhaps its the idea that God knows what will happen but doesn't cause it to happen. Knowing and causing are not the same. Being aware is not the same as being in control.
 
strikeviperMKII

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
dan p said:
Hi to all , and most believers today say that as a people , we all have free will !

To me , the only ones that had free will was Lucifer and the angels that fell with Lucifer .

The other two , were Adam and Eve .

Today , we are dead in Trespasses and Sins .

In 1 Cor 2:14 , But the Natural man received not the things of the Spirit God for they are foolishness unto him , NEITHER can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned .

It is by Election and Grace of God .
Click to expand...

The fact that you can discuss whether or not you have free will means we have free will.
 
strikeviperMKII

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
If this wasn't a DIR thread I'd debate that, but alas . . . . I leave you to dwell in your misguided notion.
Click to expand...

And I'm the one who's misguided.

Regardless, free will existed from the very beginning. It's an inherent property in God's creation. That's why Adam and Eve were able to eat the fruit, even though God told them not to.
 
oogagoogaboo

oogagoogaboo

Newbie
here is the best analogy i have ever heard about how we have free will:
A playwright/director puts on a play. Seeing as he wrote the play, he obviously knows how the play is going to go... However, he does not know what the actors are going to do.
 
R

rstrats

Active Member
javajo,

re: "...but there is no plan B for someone who consciously chooses not to believe in Christ."
　
Are you suggesting that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?
 
intrepidlover

intrepidlover

New Member
stlekee said:
Perhaps its the idea that God knows what will happen but doesn't cause it to happen. Knowing and causing are not the same. Being aware is not the same as being in control.
Click to expand...
I think this is a fair and reasonable explanation of the conundrum. There are many enigmas in Christianity. I look forward to giving my views on these in relevant threads.
 
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