"Where a rational conversation about guns ought to start"

[Skwim]

PZ Myers' thoughts on the recent theater shooting in Tampa, Florida, and posted because I think he's pretty much on point here.

"The newspaper of record reflected the disease last night. They had an article about the man killed over texting during the previews at a movie that included this ridiculous paragraph.

'The killing underscored the increased debate about when to use smartphones in public. In October, the singer Madonna was spotted texting during the Lincoln Center premiere of “12 Years a Slave.” That led Tim League, chief executive of Alama Drafthouse, a Texas-based chain of boutique cinemas, to post on Twitter that she was banned from watching movies at his theater.'
​

No, it did not underscore that debate. It underscored the debate over whether we should continue to allow armed ******** to wander the streets freely. You know, that real issue that no one in America, including the New York Times, wants to deal with, because the proponents of armed assholery like to kill you if you disagree with them.

(By the way, if you go read that article now, you’ll discover that it has been cleansed of that astonishingly stupid paragraph.)"

It’s about time the US had a rational discussion about gun control, though. It’s way past due, and the weird aversion to changing the way we manage guns has to be overcome. So here are my suggestions for a start.

◉ Repeal the second amendment

◉ Regulate gun ownership.

◉ You have no right to carry a gun in any public place.

◉ End the “gun collector” excuse.

◉ No more “self defense” excuse

◉ Change the culture."
​

source and more

​

To see his explanation of each of these suggestions access the source link above.

 

[Revoltingest]

◉ Repeal the second amendment

◉ Regulate gun ownership.
◉ You have no right to carry a gun in any public place.
◉ End the “gun collector” excuse.
◉ No more “self defense” excuse
◉ Change the culture.​

So much for "rational".
One uncomfortable point which isn't always mentioned in the coverage is that the perp was a trained
cop (retired) who solved the problem (phone texting & flying popcorn) as he was trained to do.
Your scenario also points towards the militarization of cops, & their being trained to use lethal force
as a first resort too often.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Expect these types of incidences to increase as we have growing numbers of emotionally and psychologically unstable individuals carrying firearms in public.

 

[Revoltingest]

Expect these types of incidences to increase as we have growing numbers of emotionally and psychologically unstable individuals carrying firearms in public.

Of course, a rational discussion would consider more than just the down side of guns used in self defense.
On the positive side....
Elderly Chicago man saves family, self with 'illegal' handgun - St. Louis gun rights | Examiner.com

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Of course, a rational discussion would consider more than just the down side of guns used in self defense.
On the positive side....
Elderly Chicago man saves family, self with 'illegal' handgun - St. Louis gun rights | Examiner.com

Sure, a rational discussion should include an in-depth analysis of accurate figures regarding all gun-related deaths - criminal, accidental, suicidal, as well as self-defense. However, such a fact-based analysis in regards to formulating rational policy for firearms is a pipe-dream, as long as both sides remain fixed in their ideological, emotionally-reactive perspectives. But, certainly, there is nothing irrational about my analysis of expecting increasing numbers of incidences such as these as the number of people carrying firearms in public continues to grow.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, a rational discussion should include an in-depth analysis of accurate figures regarding all gun-related deaths - criminal, accidental, suicidal, as well as self-defense. However, such a fact-based analysis in regards to formulating rational policy for firearms is a pipe-dream, as long as both sides remain fixed in their ideological, emotionally-reactive perspectives. But, certainly, there is nothing irrational about my analysis of expecting increasing numbers of incidences such as these as the number of people carrying firearms in public continues to grow.

No argument from me.

 

[oldbadger]

It’s about time the US had a rational discussion about gun control, though. It’s way past due, and the weird aversion to changing the way we manage guns has to be overcome. So here are my suggestions for a start.

◉ Repeal the second amendment
​

Ok.... I admit it..... I'm a gun debate junkie.
But I'm not alone .....

No. Don't worry about guns for a bit. Well, for a year or two.
I thought that if mandatory 3rd part liability insurance cover for all and any gun owners was introduced, coast-to-coast, that accident victims would get faster care and reparation, police could instantly seize any gun found to be uninsured (easy, today), careless users and crims premiums would be too high for them to hold guns legally..leading to easier confiscation on discovery..... blah blah blah....

.....but before I got too excited I looked into vehicle liability insurance in the USA. Oh God, what a bloody mess. You need to sort out coast-to-coast consistent 3rd party liability cover for drivers/vehicles before you do anything. Look at the vehicle accident rates and then the gun 'all-death' rates.

Legislation in the USA is one big nightmare, methinks.​

 

[Revoltingest]

Ok.... I admit it..... I'm a gun debate junkie.
But I'm not alone .....

No. Don't worry about guns for a bit. Well, for a year or two.
I thought that if mandatory 3rd part liability insurance cover for all and any gun owners was introduced, coast-to-coast, that accident victims would get faster care and reparation, police could instantly seize any gun found to be uninsured (easy, today), careless users and crims premiums would be too high for them to hold guns legally..leading to easier confiscation on discovery..... blah blah blah....

.....but before I got too excited I looked into vehicle liability insurance in the USA. Oh God, what a bloody mess. You need to sort out coast-to-coast consistent 3rd party liability cover for drivers/vehicles before you do anything. Look at the vehicle accident rates and then the gun 'all-death' rates.

Legislation in the USA is one big nightmare, methinks.

More & more I'm convinced that you're gonna try to sell me insurance some day.

 

[Father Heathen]

If you genuinely want rational, the then discussion should focus the psychological, sociological, economic, and cultural roots of crime and violence. I wouldn't consider demonizing inanimate objects and squeaking and squealing for the repeal of freedom a "rational discussion".

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

If you genuinely want rational, the then discussion should focus the psychological, sociological, economic, and cultural roots of crime and violence. I wouldn't consider demonizing inanimate objects and squeaking and squealing for the repeal of freedom a "rational discussion".

While I think the 2nd amendment should be repealed, that would only work in a perfect world. Your post nailed it, I think.

 

[Iti oj]

PZ Myers' thoughts on the recent theater shooting in Tampa, Florida, and posted because I think he's pretty much on point here.

"The newspaper of record reflected the disease last night. They had an article about the man killed over texting during the previews at a movie that included this ridiculous paragraph.

'The killing underscored the increased debate about when to use smartphones in public. In October, the singer Madonna was spotted texting during the Lincoln Center premiere of “12 Years a Slave.” That led Tim League, chief executive of Alama Drafthouse, a Texas-based chain of boutique cinemas, to post on Twitter that she was banned from watching movies at his theater.'
​

No, it did not underscore that debate. It underscored the debate over whether we should continue to allow armed ******** to wander the streets freely. You know, that real issue that no one in America, including the New York Times, wants to deal with, because the proponents of armed assholery like to kill you if you disagree with them.

(By the way, if you go read that article now, you’ll discover that it has been cleansed of that astonishingly stupid paragraph.)"

It’s about time the US had a rational discussion about gun control, though. It’s way past due, and the weird aversion to changing the way we manage guns has to be overcome. So here are my suggestions for a start.

◉ Repeal the second amendment

◉ Regulate gun ownership.

◉ You have no right to carry a gun in any public place.

◉ End the “gun collector” excuse.

◉ No more “self defense” excuse

◉ Change the culture."
​

source and more

​

To see his explanation of each of these suggestions access the source link above.

by rational do you mean have it your way?

 

[CMike]

The debate should start with the individual constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

The burden is on the anti gun rights people.

 

[Sunstone]

The debate should start with the individual constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

The burden is on the anti gun rights people.

Good! Let's start there by repealing the second amendment. I wouldn't normally be for such a thing, but I see no effort on the gun side to engage in rational compromise. So, repeal the second.

 

[Father Heathen]

Good! Let's start there by repealing the second amendment.

Followed by the rest of them.

I see no effort on the gun side to engage in rational compromise.

Current requirements and restrictions are already a rational compromise.

 

[Sunstone]

Followed by the rest of them.

Slippery slope fallacy.

 

[Sunstone]

Current requirements and restrictions are already a rational compromise.

First off, more needs to be done. Second, polling is showing that most people -- even most NRA members -- are for greater restrictions than currently exist. It's only a minority opposed to reform. Third, even if those restrictions were put in place, people would still be able to bear arms. But the gun lobby is preventing reform and compromise. So, time to repeal the Second.

At any rate, I just couldn't resist for once, but gun debates aren't my thing. So I'm out of this one now. Have the last word.

Oh, and you can google the polling.

 

[Skwim]

by rational do you mean have it your way?

That's PZ Myers' word. All the indented material is from the linked source.

 

[Father Heathen]

First off, more needs to be done. Second, polling is showing that most people -- even most NRA members -- are for greater restrictions than currently exist. It's only a minority opposed to reform. Third, even if those restrictions were put in place, people would still be able to bear arms. But the gun lobby is preventing reform and compromise. So, time to repeal the Second.

At any rate, I just couldn't resist for once, but gun debates aren't my thing. So I'm out of this one now. Have the last word.

Oh, and you can google the polling.

Yes, more needs to be done - more needs to be done to address the psychological, sociological, economic, and cultural issues that are the root of crime and violence. That's where the focus should actually be rather than on hysteria, demonization, and sensationalism.

 

[CMike]

Good! Let's start there by repealing the second amendment. I wouldn't normally be for such a thing, but I see no effort on the gun side to engage in rational compromise. So, repeal the second.

I'll get right on it.:no:

I'll work on the first and the fifth while I am at it.


Hell, who needs contitutional rights anyway??? Let's just burn the whole thing.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Again, as I've stated in other posts, a comprehensive psychological exam of all people buying a gun should be implemented. This keeps the Second Amendment and will reduce, but not solves the problems regarding gun safety.