Where are those that have already died?

[totcamry]

Where are Christian people that have already died? Are they still "sleeping" or are they in heaven? Please site any bible verses too. Thanks.

 

[james2ko]

Where are Christian people that have already died? Are they still "sleeping" or are they in heaven? Please site any bible verses too. Thanks.

Definitely not in heaven:

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.​

They are still asleep awaiting the resurrection.

Eph 5:14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."​

There are many more passages which others will post.

 

[wordmagnifiedabovenames]

^This.

1 Thes 4 is another one.

 

[Sweetvoice]

Definitely not in heaven:

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
​

They are still asleep awaiting the resurrection.

Eph 5:14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."
​

There are many more passages which others will post.

Therefore, it must be that the souls are sleeping. Where and how or who "sleep", since the physical body is cremated and done to dust?

 

[Katzpur]

Where are Christian people that have already died? Are they still "sleeping" or are they in heaven? Please site any bible verses too. Thanks.

They are neither in Heaven nor are they asleep. Their bodies may be in the grave, but their spirits are continuing to exist as the cognizant entities they have always been, either in paradise or in hell, awaiting the resurrection and -- if they wish -- taking advantage of the continued opportunities God is giving them to learn and grow and make choices that will impact their eternal destiny.

 

[Sweetvoice]

They are neither in Heaven nor are they asleep. Their bodies may be in the grave, but their spirits are continuing to exist as the cognizant entities they have always been, either in paradise or in hell, awaiting the resurrection and -- if they wish -- taking advantage of the continued opportunities God is giving them to learn and grow and make choices that will impact their eternal destiny.

You contend that the dead are either in Paradise or hell - before the ressurection. Therefore, after death the dead are in heaven or hell, right?

 

[Katzpur]

You contend that the dead are either in Paradise or hell - before the ressurection. Therefore, after death the dead are in heaven or hell, right?

I believe that after death, but prior to the resurrection, they are either in paradise (which is not the same as heaven) or hell. Paradise and hell are spirit realms or states of existence. They are not "places" a person goes go. After the resurrection (there will actually be two resurrections), almost all will go to heaven. A very, very, very few will be cast into outer darkness. That's it in a nutshell. I would be happy to elaborate. I just don't want to unless somebody's interested.

 

[Sweetvoice]

I believe that after death, but prior to the resurrection, they are either in paradise (which is not the same as heaven) or hell. Paradise and hell are spirit realms or states of existence. They are not "places" a person goes go. After the resurrection (there will actually be two resurrections), almost all will go to heaven. A very, very, very few will be cast into outer darkness. That's it in a nutshell. I would be happy to elaborate. I just don't want to unless somebody's interested.

You hold a difference between heaven and paradise. I will accept your view. Thanks.

 

[james2ko]

Therefore, it must be that the souls are sleeping. Where and how or who "sleep",

To answer the "how" to your question, we must start from the proper premise. It would help to understand the relationship between the human spirit and the body. see point # 3 in this post here.

The where: At death, a Christian's human spirit [cassette) is separated from the body (cassette player) and stored by God in, what I refer to as, a heavenly storage cabinet (Ecc 12:7; Acts 7:59). At the first resurrection, the human spirit along with the Holy Spirit will be reinserted in the Christian's newly formed "hybrid" spirit body.

since the physical body is cremated and done to dust?

He made Adam from dust so we can safely conclude forming a hybrid spirit body for the human and Holy spirit to be inserted will not be a problem. Ezekiel was privileged to experience this type of creative power in a vision in chapter 37.

 

[Sweetvoice]

To answer the "how" to your question, we must start from the proper premise. It would help to understand the relationship between the human spirit and the body. see point # 3 in this post here.

The where: At death, a Christian's human spirit [cassette) is separated from the body (cassette player) and stored by God in, what I refer to as, a heavenly storage cabinet (Ecc 12:7; Acts 7:59). At the first resurrection, the human spirit along with the Holy Spirit will be reinserted in the Christian's newly formed "hybrid" spirit body.



He made Adam from dust so we can safely conclude forming a hybrid spirit body for the human and Holy spirit to be inserted will not be a problem. Ezekiel was privileged to experience this type of creative power in a vision in chapter 37.

So we have a human spirit, which will merge with the holy spirit (on ressurection) to form the new hybrid spirit for entrance into the "heaven" (not paradise). I will think this through and read up on the chapter/verses suggested and come back again (maybe).
But, yes, good explaning. Thanks.

 

[Katzpur]

You hold a difference between heaven and paradise. I will accept your view. Thanks.

Well, let me tell you why. On Easter morning, when Mary met Christ in the garden outside the tomb, He told her not to touch Him since He had not yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. And yet we know that three days earlier, as He hung dying on the cross, He told the repentant thief who hung next to Him that they would see each other that day in Paradise. So, if Christ had been in Paradise after His death but not returned to Heaven, they couldn't very well be one and the same. (Of course, James2ko will explain this quite differently, which is okay. Neither one of us was actually there. )

 

[Sweetvoice]

In another Thread, someone already explain the "today" as a grammatical error to suggest not going to "paradise" today (not sure in which thread), but rather like meaning "today I will say to you."
Also if a living person (Mary) cannot touch a person in "paradise", imply that the latter is of a spirit form untouchable by the physical. So, the paradise cannot be of this earthly realm/dimension? Alternative, we could understand that a dead person could hang around for a bit on this earth before going to a "heaven."

Ahh! but what do I know, perhaps the bible stories are meant to be unclear and intriguing.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I believe the bible teaches, that when you die and you are saved, you immediately go to be with Jesus in heaven, and your body is raised from the dead on judgment day. If you die unsaved, you simply cease to exist.
What Katzpur is explaining is the Mormon view and not just the bible. So take it for what it is worth, it is a separate religion than Christianity. Similar but different.

One evidence that supports my assertion is in the following verse
Philippians 1

[23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Here Paul declares that if he were to depart he would be with Christ.
However from another verse we know that it would only be in spirit form, as the body will not raise until judgment day. We read in 1st Corinthians 15:

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Definitely not in heaven:

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.​

This verse is simply saying no man has gone to heaven. There is a difference in a man and the spirit of a man going to heaven. The verses before this verse explain this. It is simply saying men don't know the things of heaven as they have never been and come back to testify.
You are teaching wrong here.

They are still asleep awaiting the resurrection.

Eph 5:14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."​

Again you are teaching falsely here.
This verse can only be referring to the experience of being reborn, you know becoming a child of God while you are alive. In your spirit inside of you rise from the dead when you are reborn. We know this because of the rest of the verse in this chapter. In fact the very next verse it says

[15] See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

It is referring to receiving the light while you are living. This has NOTHING to do with the resurrection of dead bodies.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe the bible teaches, that when you die and you are saved, you immediately go to be with Jesus in heaven, and your body is raised from the dead on judgment day. If you die unsaved, you simply cease to exist.

You believe the Bible as you interpret it. I believe the Bible as I interpret it. I would just love to see any verse from the Bible saying that if you die unsaved, you simply cease to exist. Good luck with that one, Mike.

What Katzpur is explaining is the Mormon view and not just the bible. So take it for what it is worth, it is a separate religion than Christianity. Similar but different.

Mormonism is no more separate from Christianity than Lutheranism is separate from Christianity. It is a denomination within Christianity.

One evidence that supports my assertion is in the following verse
Philippians 1
Here Paul declares that if he were to depart he would be with Christ.
However from another verse we know that it would only be in spirit form, as the body will not raise until judgment day. We read in 1st Corinthians 15:

Of course he said He'd be with Christ. I don't see anything about this being "immediate." I don't have any problem with you believing it will be, but don't say it says something in the Bible when it doesn't.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You believe the Bible as you interpret it. I believe the Bible as I interpret it. I would just love to see any verse from the Bible saying that if you die unsaved, you simply cease to exist. Good luck with that one, Mike.

Mormonism is no more separate from Christianity than Lutheranism is separate from Christianity. It is a denomination within Christianity.

Of course he said He'd be with Christ. I don't see anything about this being "immediate." I don't have any problem with you believing it will be, but don't say it says something in the Bible when it doesn't.

I'd be glad to reply when I get home this evening. However judging from the some what hostile tone of your response, I'm not sure it is worth doing.

The OP asked about the bible and some of the stuff you posted is not from the bible, I just think original poster should know that.

 

[Katzpur]

I'd be glad to reply when I get home this evening. However judging from the some what hostile tone of your response, I'm not sure it is worth doing.

The OP asked about the bible and some of the stuff you posted is not from the bible, I just think original poster should know that.

Hostile? What on earth was hostile about my post? If someone told you you weren't a Christian, wouldn't you take offense? I thought I was actually quite civil in how I corrected you.

And some of the stuff you posted in not from the Bible. As to whether my beliefs can be substantiated scripturally, I would say that they can, at least to the extent yours can. After all, if it were spelled out in detail exactly what was going to happen to us and when, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, would we? One person would have posted an answer and all of the rest of us would have had nothing to say but, "That's right." At any rate, I'll be glad to see your response and I'm sorry if you thought I was being hostile. It's just difficult listening to people say you're not a Christian when you know darned well that you are. If you sensed my frustration, maybe it's just as well.

 

[Katzpur]

In another Thread, someone already explain the "today" as a grammatical error to suggest not going to "paradise" today (not sure in which thread), but rather like meaning "today I will say to you."

I don't think anyone was suggesting that it was a grammatical error, per se, but that depending upon whether a comma is inserted after the word "today," the meaning of the sentence changes. Since the original Greek would not have had any punctuation, the sentence could be interepreted one of two ways.

[quoteAlso if a living person (Mary) cannot touch a person in "paradise", imply that the latter is of a spirit form untouchable by the physical. So, the paradise cannot be of this earthly realm/dimension? Alternative, we could understand that a dead person could hang around for a bit on this earth before going to a "heaven."[/quote]I believe you may have misunderstood. When Mary reached out to Jesus, neither of them were in Paradise. They were here on this Earth. I was saying that Jesus had been to both Paradise where He saw the repentant thief and to visit the spirits in Prison during the time His body lay in the tomb. Of course, He was in a spirit state at that time, as were the individuals He saw and visited.

Ahh! but what do I know, perhaps the bible stories are meant to be unclear and intriguing.

I suppose that's a possibility. I rather believe that they are meant to be clear. God says He's not a God of confusion, so I suspect that it's not really His will that we be confused.

 

[james2ko]

This verse is simply saying no man has gone to heaven. There is a difference in a man and the spirit of a man going to heaven. The verses before this verse explain this. It is simply saying men don't know the things of heaven as they have never been and come back to testify.
You are teaching wrong here.
Again you are teaching falsely here.
This verse can only be referring to the experience of being reborn, you know becoming a child of God while you are alive. In your spirit inside of you rise from the dead when you are reborn. We know this because of the rest of the verse in this chapter. In fact the very next verse it says
It is referring to receiving the light while you are living. This has NOTHING to do with the resurrection of dead bodies.

We shall see who's teachings are false on May 22 BTW This is not a debate thread, If you want to discuss it, start a thread.

 

[james2ko]

So we have a human spirit, which will merge with the holy spirit (on ressurection) to form the new hybrid spirit for entrance into the "heaven" (not paradise). I will think this through and read up on the chapter/verses suggested and come back again (maybe).
But, yes, good explaning. Thanks.

Yes and no... After our transformation to spirit at the resurrection, we will meet Christ in the air (1 Th 4:17) and attend the marriage supper in heaven (Rev 19:7-9). I speculate we will learn the extent of our reward and what positions of leadership we will inherit (1 Co 6:2-3; Rev 2:26-27; Rev 20:6) on the earth, as well as how to properly use our newly acquired powers. It may include a tour of heaven; getting acquainted with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and other saints, the 24 elders, Michael, Gabriel, and other angels; Perhaps meet and speak to the Father Himself.

I don't suspect this orientation and getting acquainted session will last more than a few days based on the sequence of events in the book Revelation. After orientation, we will descend from heaven (Zec 14:5; Jud 1:14-15; 1 th 3:13) on white horses (Rev 19:11,14) with Christ to the Mount of Olives (Zec 14:4) and begin the millennial rule with Christ by exercising our power to comfort, encourage and heal those who survive the catastrophic end-time events and begin massive clean-up and restoration operations in our assigned cities (Luk 19:12-27).