Where did god come from???+ morals debate

[MistuhAtheist]

I have been puzzled by the idea of how god was created. Many creationists argue that the Big Bang was from nothing but, putting that aside, aren't creationists being a little hypocritical here?

Also, I really hate the idea of creationists thinking we don't have morals. I have morals because of my empathy towards others, and my idea is that if the only thing stopping you from being a complete criminal is a judgement then you are a bad person.

No offence to anyone here, but I just wanted to put it out there.

MistuhAtheist out!

 

[Madhuri]

Well I'm a theist who believes in Evolution- just that God is behind it all.

I think that morals come from a combination of empathy and cultural upbringing. For example plenty of people would not hurt an animal themselves because of their empathy but they support the meat industry by buying meat products and that industry tortures animals far more than we would by hunting them.

Also what we consider moral can differ from one culture to another. So morality is certainly innate (imo) but also influenced by our beliefs and culture.

 

[McNap]

Thank you for putting it out and welcome.

I believe that God came from eternity.
God was not created.
He has always been there.

You may be right that some argues are hypocritical. I think I've been hypocritical myself sometimes. Sorry.
I don't want to be hypocritical.

To be honest... I believe Judgement day will come which will be a righteous judgement, but sometimes I still make mistakes, so you are right. It didn't stop me from being a complete criminal.
With most christians I find it hard to confess my sins, though I feel the need.
I used to be a member of a church where I sometimes had to say sorry for things that aren't even a sin, because they said it was.

 

[seeking4truth]

I have been puzzled by the idea of how god was created. No offence to anyone here, but I just wanted to put it out there.
MistuhAtheist out!

God is creator not created. Being creator is what makes God God. 'He' is not limited by the natural, physical and scientific laws He applied to His creation.

 

[brokensymmetry]

When I was clearly a theist I would have said this. Everything we observe physically about the world is contingent. Contingent things require explanations. God is a necessary entity and necessary entities by definition have no explanations. This is a Leibnizian style cosmological argument.

The danger in doing a kalam style cosmological argument, on the other hand, in which you argue that the universe requires a beginning and something had to begin it, is then you are left having to explain why God doesn't require that beginning. So far I am not finding that a lot of people have a clear answer for that.

As for morals, I don't think God has anything to do with morality either which way. Either you think there are objective moral truths,either emergent naturalistically somehow or irreducible, or you think they are subjective on some level, on a personal or societal level. The idea that God defines morality via God's preferences is a subject view of morality and carries with it a lot of difficult questions about why we ought to care about what God's preferences happen to be.

 

[ChristineES]

I have been puzzled by the idea of how god was created. Many creationists argue that the Big Bang was from nothing but, putting that aside, aren't creationists being a little hypocritical here?

Also, I really hate the idea of creationists thinking we don't have morals. I have morals because of my empathy towards others, and my idea is that if the only thing stopping you from being a complete criminal is a judgement then you are a bad person.

No offence to anyone here, but I just wanted to put it out there.

MistuhAtheist out!

As a theist and a Christian, I believe that we didn't create God.

But some theists believe in evolution, as someone else pointed, they believe that God created evolution. And you are right, there are plenty of theists who don't believe that atheists have any morals since they believe that morals came from God. I can assure that not all of we theists believe that way. Atheists can have morals, the way I see it.

Welcome to the RF.

 

[Riverwolf]

I believe that things are made Gods by the human psychological process of deification. This can apply to living people, animals, objects, ancestors, otherworldly entities, or pretty much anything. IOW, before full behavioral modernity developed, there were no Gods, even if entities that would later become Gods were around.

But exactly where these entities came from, or indeed exactly what they are, or if they even exist outside the human mind, is really anyone's guess. I definitely believe that the human mind has some degree of control over the ever-shifting Otherworld.

 

[Altfish]

I do find it strange that believers are happy to say something like "God was not created, he was always there"; yet ask atheists, "Where did we come from?" or "What came before the big bang?"

It appears to my simple mind like special pleading, "I don't have to explain where my god comes from but you must fully explain everything to do with origins"

Am I wrong?

 

[columbus]

I do find it strange that believers are happy to say something like "God was not created, he was always there"; yet ask atheists, "Where did we come from?" or "What came before the big bang?"

It appears to my simple mind like special pleading, "I don't have to explain where my god comes from but you must fully explain everything to do with origins"

Am I wrong?

No.
But I bet you get ignored by all theists who don't have special definitions for words like contingent, omnipotent, and necessary.

Tom

 

[Riverwolf]

I do find it strange that believers are happy to say something like "God was not created, he was always there"; yet ask atheists, "Where did we come from?" or "What came before the big bang?"

It appears to my simple mind like special pleading, "I don't have to explain where my god comes from but you must fully explain everything to do with origins"

Am I wrong?

No, I've observed as much, as well.

It's as if there's some real need for a system wherein ALL questions have some sort of definite answer, even if the answer doesn't make any sense upon real inquiry. It would make sense; as Lovecraft observed, the oldest and strongest type of fear is fear of the unknown.

 

[Altfish]

"I don't know" is a perfectly good answer, especially when followed by "but we are working at it"

 

[Riverwolf]

"I don't know" is a perfectly good answer, especially when followed by "but we are working at it"

Yes, it is.

But it can also be a very scary answer, depending on the nature of the question.

 

[McNap]

It's just that I'm interested in the origin of our life, while Darwin's focus is on the origin of species.
As far as I know human life has merely been coming forth from life that already existed. Therefore my conclusion that it must have always been there.

I wouldn't expect you to explain me the origin of our life, but I myself have a spiritual explanation.
If life was always there, then there must also be a collective consience that owns the ability to support eternal life in showing us he was before us.

The holy spirit has that. He is able to innerly touch us. He doesn't go against life, just as the 10 commandments don't.
In other words the prove of this lies inside of us. It's spiritual. The only reason why I would seek for prove outside of me, is because I never heard of a collective consience to seek for and thus can not lead myself towards him through the looking inside of me. Or else you must believe the origin would be something that may be forgotten of, which wouldn't make sense since we're supposed to bring forth more life. That's the message.

Look at what the OP said. He knows morality even without faith in God. He doesn't need others to teach him. And why is that? It's because he can look inside of himself. That's exactly what our law says: Love your neighbour like yourself.

As a believer I even love God above everybody, since He didn't want to create life in order to destroy it, but things do change where we want it so. I don't have to prove it's true, since all you can see for yourselves.
We all made mistakes and need to find our way back in to a spirit that brings us forward again.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I have been puzzled by the idea of how god was created. Many creationists argue that the Big Bang was from nothing but, putting that aside, aren't creationists being a little hypocritical here?

Also, I really hate the idea of creationists thinking we don't have morals. I have morals because of my empathy towards others, and my idea is that if the only thing stopping you from being a complete criminal is a judgement then you are a bad person.

No offence to anyone here, but I just wanted to put it out there.

MistuhAtheist out!

But do we not have our own judgment though our own conscience?

What do you mean, "how God was created"?

 

[Robert.Evans]

I do find it strange that believers are happy to say something like "God was not created, he was always there"; yet ask atheists, "Where did we come from?" or "What came before the big bang?"

It appears to my simple mind like special pleading, "I don't have to explain where my god comes from but you must fully explain everything to do with origins"

Am I wrong?

I would have thought there was an obvious difference myself, but perhaps not to someone who does not understand it. Let me ask you to think of this,

Can time keep regressing?

If time cannot, then what is before it?

If time can, then what is time?

Can anything come from nothing?

If not, what is there that it comes from?

If yes, then define nothing?

Does there have to be something that just "IS" by necessity?

Why do people believe in God?

Why is there an obvious need to know where we come from?

 

[Robert.Evans]

No, I've observed as much, as well.

It's as if there's some real need for a system wherein ALL questions have some sort of definite answer, even if the answer doesn't make any sense upon real inquiry. It would make sense; as Lovecraft observed, the oldest and strongest type of fear is fear of the unknown.

Give your reasons why the 'answer doesn't make any sense upon real inquiry'.

 

[Robert.Evans]

"I don't know" is a perfectly good answer, especially when followed by "but we are working at it"

I don't know is a good answer if indeed you don't know, but to say you are working on it, suggests that you don't believe in God, and therefore you are working through corporeal understandings, which would smack of arrogance in saying that there cannot be anything we can't see, when clearly even in science there is

 

[Robert.Evans]

It's just that I'm interested in the origin of our life, while Darwin's focus is on the origin of species.
As far as I know human life has merely been coming forth from life that already existed. Therefore my conclusion that it must have always been there.

I wouldn't expect you to explain me the origin of our life, but I myself have a spiritual explanation.
If life was always there, then there must also be a collective consience that owns the ability to support eternal life in showing us he was before us.

The holy spirit has that. He is able to innerly touch us. He doesn't go against life, just as the 10 commandments don't.
In other words the prove of this lies inside of us. It's spiritual. The only reason why I would seek for prove outside of me, is because I never heard of a collective consience to seek for and thus can not lead myself towards him through the looking inside of me. Or else you must believe the origin would be something that may be forgotten of, which wouldn't make sense since we're supposed to bring forth more life. That's the message.

Look at what the OP said. He knows morality even without faith in God. He doesn't need others to teach him. And why is that? It's because he can look inside of himself. That's exactly what our law says: Love your neighbour like yourself.

As a believer I even love God above everybody, since He didn't want to create life in order to destroy it, but things do change where we want it so. I don't have to prove it's true, since all you can see for yourselves.
We all made mistakes and need to find our way back in to a spirit that brings us forward again.

I agree, it is within, as all knowledge is

 

[Altfish]

I don't know is a good answer if indeed you don't know, but to say you are working on it, suggests that you don't believe in God, and therefore you are working through corporeal understandings, which would smack of arrogance in saying that there cannot be anything we can't see, when clearly even in science there is

God is not an answer; if scientist throughout the ages had accepted 'god' as an answer we'd still be in the stone ages.

 

[Altfish]

I would have thought there was an obvious difference myself, but perhaps not to someone who does not understand it. Let me ask you to think of this,
Please don't treat me like an idiot, treat me as an equal


Can time keep regressing?
We're not sure, time may have started with the big bang

If time cannot, then what is before it?
We're not sure. But why does anything have to be before it?

If time can, then what is time?
A measure

Can anything come from nothing?
Yes, it has been proven in the laboratory - see Lawrence Krauss' book

If not, what is there that it comes from?
See previous question

If yes, then define nothing?
Absence of anything

Does there have to be something that just "IS" by necessity?
Not sure I understand the question

Why do people believe in God?
Because god is a good explanation to many for the big unknowns

Why is there an obvious need to know where we come from?
Because we are inquisitive animals and that is how we further society