slackercruster
New Member
Could not post to the Hebrew section of the forum.
How do orthodox Jews deal with homosexual members of their congregation?
How do orthodox Jews deal with homosexual members of their congregation?
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Where do the orthodox Jews stand with homosexuality?
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Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
That's a good question.
Flame
Beware
And not the fun kind of being stoned either.
*** Thread moved to Religions Q&A ***
Leviticus 18:22...
"You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination." (Tanach)
Leviticus 20:13...
"And a man who lies with a male as one would with a woman both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves." (Tanach)
If there is any toleration of a practicing homosexual in their ranks, then they would not be following God's law. They would be yielding to the ways of the world.
Christians supposedly worship the same God so the same rules would apply.
It does not rule out identifying as homosexual, but one cannot practice fornication or adultery and remain innocent in God's sight.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Are you an Orthodox Jew? No? Well.... I think I'll wait for someone of Jewish persuasion. JW's as a general rule, (I'm NOT saying you are...but ) are notoriously bigoted when it comes to LGBTQ.
Yes, but only after Israel is reinstated to the Jews and a Third Temple is built.
And i am pretty sure the bible instructs that you should love your neighbor as yourself. I am sure it doesnt say "unless your neighbour is gay or if you dont like him"
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well... It's nice to see you've gotten some answers.
And it's nice to see that this thread was moved to a non-debate area.
I am not even close to being an Orthodox Jewish person. And I am not an expert in this area. At best, I am an Amateur Enthusiast. Emphasis on Amateur.
But I think the best way to answer this question is this way:
1) Generally speaking, I think openly homosexual people probably avoid Orthodox Judaism. So, the first thing to consider is, it's probably an uncommon situation.
2) Generally speaking, Orthodox Jews value modesty. So, even if there are homosexual members of a congregation, their personal lives would likely not be on display.
3) Orthodox Jews generally do not focus on homosexuality as a major problem the same way that other fundamental Abrahamic religions do. There are many reasons for this. But my observations of Orthodox Jewish people is that they focus on the Keeping the Sabbath Holy. They focus on eating Kosher foods. They focus on learning and studying their scripture. But they don't focus on what people do in their bedrooms... not in my observation.
4) There is a concept in Orthodox Judaism, it's a commandment to abstain from "Evil Speech". This is a very serious situation. I'm going from memory... but if I remember correctly, Speaking Evil about another person incurs a double spiritual penalty. So this means, that even if there are homosexual members of a congregation, and even in the unlikely event the homosexual members are less than modest about it, an Orthodox Jewish person is not likely to say anything about it.
In summary:
Homosexuality is rare in Orthodox Congregations in America. Homosexuality is not something that most Orthodox Jewish people will react to publicly.
Hopefully I did not offend anyone or misrepresent the situation.
And it's nice to see that this thread was moved to a non-debate area.
I am not even close to being an Orthodox Jewish person. And I am not an expert in this area. At best, I am an Amateur Enthusiast. Emphasis on Amateur.
But I think the best way to answer this question is this way:
1) Generally speaking, I think openly homosexual people probably avoid Orthodox Judaism. So, the first thing to consider is, it's probably an uncommon situation.
2) Generally speaking, Orthodox Jews value modesty. So, even if there are homosexual members of a congregation, their personal lives would likely not be on display.
3) Orthodox Jews generally do not focus on homosexuality as a major problem the same way that other fundamental Abrahamic religions do. There are many reasons for this. But my observations of Orthodox Jewish people is that they focus on the Keeping the Sabbath Holy. They focus on eating Kosher foods. They focus on learning and studying their scripture. But they don't focus on what people do in their bedrooms... not in my observation.
4) There is a concept in Orthodox Judaism, it's a commandment to abstain from "Evil Speech". This is a very serious situation. I'm going from memory... but if I remember correctly, Speaking Evil about another person incurs a double spiritual penalty. So this means, that even if there are homosexual members of a congregation, and even in the unlikely event the homosexual members are less than modest about it, an Orthodox Jewish person is not likely to say anything about it.
In summary:
Homosexuality is rare in Orthodox Congregations in America. Homosexuality is not something that most Orthodox Jewish people will react to publicly.
Hopefully I did not offend anyone or misrepresent the situation.
If you interpret the Bible's teachings as bigotry, then guilty as charged. For Jews and Christians the Bible's commands are not negotiable. For those not spiritually minded, then they can do as they please...for now.
The Bible is clear on the issue of homosexual sex, as Leviticus outlines in a very unambiguous manner. To have sex with a partner of the same gender is, as God's Law in Leviticus states..."an abomination". Why would God say that? Because sex is primarily for the production of children in a balanced family environment....the balance of both sexes is important for children to develop 'normal' sexual affiliations...role models. The fact that sex is pleasurable was a bonus, not the main attraction.
I would also like to hear how Jewish people today handle this delicate issue.....complying with God's commands in a godless world is a challenge.....a lot of Jews today are secular not religious, so I presume that they would answer according to their beliefs, or lack of them.
If we fail to meet the challenge of our times, then IMO, we have no business calling ourselves either religious Jews or Christians. God's word doesn't allow for special dispensation. The law is not alterable just because some want to break it. That doesn't mean that we cannot sympathize with their situation.....we JW's do have gay people in our ranks.....but since it is homosexual acts that are an abomination, not the people, as long as they remain celibate, there is no sin. The Law states that all sexual immorality is sin, therefore there is no way to practice it without penalty....either gay or straight.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Big sigh... i'm repeating to myself....
"this is not a debate.... this is not a debate...."
Why do atheists think that they can quote scripture to prove a point?
Misinterpreting or misapplying scripture can make any statement into a contradiction. There is no contradiction. 'Loving your neighbor as yourself' means that if you see someone doing something that God says is an "abomination", then you owe it to them to tell it like it is....not how they would like to hear it. If they accept the correction, then you have shown genuine love to your neighbor. But if not, then they will be accountable for their own actions.
The idea is to save them, not talk them into forfeiting their life by breaking God's moral laws and misapplying scripture in order to justify themselves.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
rosends
Well-Known Member
Personally, the only homosexual Orthodox Jews I know don't live in my community. Or maybe some do, but since I don't talk about anyone's sex life I am not aware of it. If it became known, I don't think that I, personally, would change anything about how I deal with the person. Whether the community as a whole would question that person's holding any public religious position, I don't know.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Nope. Not even. I am making the observation that **your** "interpretation" is bigotry.
Yours is not the only way to read those verses, but your way is Evil.
Who died and let YOU be the Final Authority, anyway?
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Why do atheists think that they can quote scripture to prove a point?
Oh, the Irony....
What are the Laws of God in relation to homosexual practice in the Jewish faith? How do you not know?
Tell me how you would interpret these scriptures....both quoted directly from the Tanach.
Leviticus 18:22...
"You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination." (Tanach)
Leviticus 20:13...
"And a man who lies with a male as one would with a woman both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves." (Tanach)
Remember that God does not change...his moral laws stand unalterable. This is Jewish scripture and Jesus was Jewish. He taught from them.
Tell me then how you read them to say what they do not? God's way is not evil....he abhors immorality....period.
Gay or straight makes little difference but the scriptures are very specific.
I wasn't aware that the scriptures were mine.....they are God's word.....people can ignore them at their own risk.
Why do atheists think that they can quote scripture to prove a point?
'Loving your neighbor as yourself' means that if you see someone doing something that God says is an "abomination", then you owe it to them to tell it like it is....not how they would like to hear it. If they accept the correction, then you have shown genuine love to your neighbor. But if not, then they will be accountable for their own actions.
The idea is to save them, not talk them into forfeiting their life by breaking God's moral laws and misapplying scripture in order to justify themselves.
Many atheists (me included) were once of the christian persuasion but escaped whole. Besides which, nothing gives you exclusive right to read or quote scripture
There is considerable contraction between "love thy neighbour as thyself" and "love thy neighbour if you want to" or "love thy neighbour if you judge them worthy"
Why do some christians object when that is pointed out to them?
Your personal opinion of the passage is interpretation to suite yourself. It is not up to you to judge another. I could quote several 'scriptures' on that very theme but you would only object to that too.
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