Where does Christianity begin and end?

[DNB]

Nothing wrong with that... except it makes everyone else hopelessly lost sinners that are destined to be cast into hell. So, there is some motivation to find reasons why the Bible and the NT aren't literally true. And I can understand why some people want to debunk Christianity so they can justify their lifestyles, but some do it to justify their religious beliefs. And the lifestyles they are trying to live are as pure and Holy as any Christian's. They just don't what to hear all that stuff about Jesus being the only way.

...I, nor any other Christian, did not make the rules. We believe that there is one single-minded Creator, and we are merely trying to abide by His will and precepts. The segregation that you are defining is not on God's part, but on the part of the self-willed and defiant - God has allowed all men under the sun to accept the atoning work of His pre-eminent Messiah.

 

[DNB]

Its pure grace that one is enabled to accept Jesus. But after that He expects His followers to obey God.

Acts do prove or justify one's faith, but in the case of failure, they will not necessarily disqualify us from salvation. Redemption is not contingent upon works, but faith - bad works can only put one's faith into question.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm talking about religious beliefs.

Would the world be a better place if those Christians that insist that Jesus is the only way to be saved? That Jesus is God? That Jesus saves a person from hell and Satan?

Baha'is don't believe in the teachings of these very literal-believing types of Christians. What do you do with them? If what they believe and what they are saying are lies, how can we allow them to keep preaching those things? But... they feel the same way about Baha'is. Then we have all the other religions. We aren't going to get people to stop believing those things. Yet, with some religious groups we do stop them from teaching their religious beliefs. We call them cults and say that they are a danger to society. But, again, where do we draw the line? Some say Mormons, Baha'is, JW's and others are cults.

So, when we are talking about variety. Are all these different beliefs important to keep and let everyone pick and choose which one is true? Or is there one truth from God. And, for the sake of peace and unity, that one truth should be taught and believed? And all the others done away with.... Because they are false in one way or another? Or at least do away with those false beliefs that have crept into those religions?

I personally believe that every person has a part of the truth believer or not. That every person is precious. That we all have parts of the jigsaw puzzle, that when put together gives us the full picture. There is a very beautiful and profound saying by Ruhi that goes like this:

The truth was a mirror in the hands of God. It fell, and broke into pieces. Everybody took a piece of it, and they looked at it and thought they had the truth.” (Rumi)

In life, I believe we all have a piece of the truth but that we need other peoples pieces to complete the puzzle. So from what I can gather the Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and Baha’is as well as humanists and atheists all possess very crucial pieces of truth which only make sense of the puzzle when combined.

Is Jesus the only one? Yes. This needs to be explained. There is only one sun. If we say there is only one sun that is true. But we see that sun appear everyday. In the world of time we see seven suns each week that appear on different days but it is the same sun.

So we name the days Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and so on but it is still the same sun. Now although it is the same one and only sun which appears each day, the Christians for example only accept the sun of Monday declaring the sun which appears on the other six days to be false because of their different names.

So they are right that there is only one Sun of Truth which is God to us because nobody knows God so only by turning to God through His Sun of Truth can we be saved.

The problem is that because the sun is called by different names on the different days, they reject it is the sun which clearly is untrue as it is the same sun which shines each day no matter what name the day is called. So believing in Mondays sun is true and in Tuesdays sun that is true also.

The religions of God each like Suns of Truth, appeared on different days but it is the same one sun reappearing and whether it is the Sun of Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha, it is still the same one Sun of Truth reappearing. If we look at the sun we shall see the same Sun of Truth in all religions. But if we look at the names of the days we shall become opposed, divided and conflicted. The indisputable truth though, is that there is only one sun and one Sun of Truth.

This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. (Baha’u’llah)

 

[CG Didymus]

I personally believe that every person has a part of the truth believer or not. That every person is precious. That we all have parts of the jigsaw puzzle, that when put together gives us the full picture. There is a very beautiful and profound saying by Ruhi that goes like this:

The truth was a mirror in the hands of God. It fell, and broke into pieces. Everybody took a piece of it, and they looked at it and thought they had the truth.” (Rumi)

In life, I believe we all have a piece of the truth but that we need other peoples pieces to complete the puzzle. So from what I can gather the Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and Baha’is as well as humanists and atheists all possess very crucial pieces of truth which only make sense of the puzzle when combined.

Is Jesus the only one? Yes. This needs to be explained. There is only one sun. If we say there is only one sun that is true. But we see that sun appear everyday. In the world of time we see seven suns each week that appear on different days but it is the same sun.

So we name the days Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and so on but it is still the same sun. Now although it is the same one and only sun which appears each day, the Christians for example only accept the sun of Monday declaring the sun which appears on the other six days to be false because of their different names.

So they are right that there is only one Sun of Truth which is God to us because nobody knows God so only by turning to God through His Sun of Truth can we be saved.

The problem is that because the sun is called by different names on the different days, they reject it is the sun which clearly is untrue as it is the same sun which shines each day no matter what name the day is called. So believing in Mondays sun is true and in Tuesdays sun that is true also.

The religions of God each like Suns of Truth, appeared on different days but it is the same one sun reappearing and whether it is the Sun of Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha, it is still the same one Sun of Truth reappearing. If we look at the sun we shall see the same Sun of Truth in all religions. But if we look at the names of the days we shall become opposed, divided and conflicted. The indisputable truth though, is that there is only one sun and one Sun of Truth.

This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. (Baha’u’llah)

If all we do is look at one religion, Christianity... What do we know is true? Is the Bible true? Is the NT true? I don't think very many people, other than some Christians (and for the Bible, some Jews and maybe some Muslims?) but how many Baha'is would say that? The only truth we know about Jesus comes from the NT. If that's not accurate and true, then what do we really know about him?

Jesus talks about demons, Satan and hell. Can we believe what he says about them? No, Baha'is say those things are literally true. Then the one I always bring up. The gospels make it sound like Jesus came back to life. In Acts it says that he showed himself to be alive by many proofs. He was touched and said that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. Yet, Baha'is say the resurrection was spiritual, not physical. So no, we can't trust the NT, and therefore can't trust the things it claims that Jesus said and did? There is no real "reflection" of God that we're looking at. Unless... we believe it is true.... That it is the inerrant word of God.

Can Baha'is really, honestly say that? I don't think so. As I recall Baha'is don't believe the Bible to be 100% authentic. So, why play games and pretend all religions are one. They've got some good stuff in them and some flaky stuff. And, in the end, Baha'is really don't want us to believe in those old doctrines and beliefs anyway. They want us to move on and accept that the Baha'i Faith is true. Which, doesn't that mean that ended with the coming of Muhammad? But then the other thing I ask... Look at the beliefs and doctrines of the Early Christians. When did they ever have the truth? That is when you compare their beliefs to what Baha'is say is true.

I think the old religions were very much man-made. Some had Gods and Goddesses, devils and demons. prophets and God/men. And wouldn't Baha'is agree that some of the ancient religions were man-made? But... if you do agree, then how different were those made-up religions to the supposed "real" religions? They all had mythical stories in them. Things similar to what the NT has... A virgin-born God/man that resurrected from the dead. That will someday come back and conquer the Evil One and cast all evil people into a fiery abyss.

If, in the beginning, Christianity didn't have a dying and rising God/man, do you really think it would have caught on so well? That is the "truth" they believed in. And if that isn't the real truth, then what was it? It was make-believe. But it worked.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If all we do is look at one religion, Christianity... What do we know is true? Is the Bible true? Is the NT true? I don't think very many people, other than some Christians (and for the Bible, some Jews and maybe some Muslims?) but how many Baha'is would say that? The only truth we know about Jesus comes from the NT. If that's not accurate and true, then what do we really know about him?

Jesus talks about demons, Satan and hell. Can we believe what he says about them? No, Baha'is say those things are literally true. Then the one I always bring up. The gospels make it sound like Jesus came back to life. In Acts it says that he showed himself to be alive by many proofs. He was touched and said that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. Yet, Baha'is say the resurrection was spiritual, not physical. So no, we can't trust the NT, and therefore can't trust the things it claims that Jesus said and did? There is no real "reflection" of God that we're looking at. Unless... we believe it is true.... That it is the inerrant word of God.

Can Baha'is really, honestly say that? I don't think so. As I recall Baha'is don't believe the Bible to be 100% authentic. So, why play games and pretend all religions are one. They've got some good stuff in them and some flaky stuff. And, in the end, Baha'is really don't want us to believe in those old doctrines and beliefs anyway. They want us to move on and accept that the Baha'i Faith is true. Which, doesn't that mean that ended with the coming of Muhammad? But then the other thing I ask... Look at the beliefs and doctrines of the Early Christians. When did they ever have the truth? That is when you compare their beliefs to what Baha'is say is true.

I think the old religions were very much man-made. Some had Gods and Goddesses, devils and demons. prophets and God/men. And wouldn't Baha'is agree that some of the ancient religions were man-made? But... if you do agree, then how different were those made-up religions to the supposed "real" religions? They all had mythical stories in them. Things similar to what the NT has... A virgin-born God/man that resurrected from the dead. That will someday come back and conquer the Evil One and cast all evil people into a fiery abyss.

If, in the beginning, Christianity didn't have a dying and rising God/man, do you really think it would have caught on so well? That is the "truth" they believed in. And if that isn't the real truth, then what was it? It was make-believe. But it worked.

What I believe we fail to question most is ourselves or long time held interpretations which have been a cause of division for thousands of years before Baha’u’llah appeared providing us with a holistic view of all the scriptures being but chapters of the same Book of God.

That might be true except that Baha’is believe as much if not more than Christians in Jesus yet see the resurrection as symbolical of the rise of Christianity after His Passing and His appearances afterwards as visions, like that on Mount Tabor which was a vision. We don’t require ‘make believe’ to accept Christ or any of the Prophets.

A lot of your other questions are easily resolved for myself by turning to Baha’u’llah. If He is Who He claims to be then our information regarding any religion, which parts are accurate, which are the right interpretations are all clear. Man will never be able to figure out these things without God’s assistance. So Baha’u’llah has interpreted many passages of the NT and even Revelation and Abdul-Baha some chapters of Revelation etc. so really, it all comes down to whether Baha’u’llah is the Promised One or not.

In Revelation it says no one can unseal the true meanings of the prophecies except the Promised One. No priest, not the pope not any human. So ALL interpretations other than that of the Promised One will be wrong. Who is that One? That is where all the answers to your questions lie because none of us are able to unseal the books meanings. That’s what the Bible says in both Daniel and Revelation.

So unless you find the Promised One you cannot successfully interpret the Bible. No one can.

 

[CG Didymus]

What I believe we fail to question most is ourselves or long time held interpretations which have been a cause of division for thousands of years before Baha’u’llah appeared providing us with a holistic view of all the scriptures being but chapters of the same Book of God.

Which Scriptures? What Scriptures from Hinduism and Buddhism do Baha'is recognize as being true and from God?

But then there is this thing about causing "division"? Where in the Bible are any other religions mentioned as being true? Then in the NT... What other religions or beliefs other than the things taught in the NT are said to be true? It is causing a division, but to Jews of the Bible and Christians with the NT, it was dividing truth from error and God's true religion from false Gods and religions. And I really don't see any difference with the Baha'i Faith. Baha'i aren't saying Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity or any other religions are true, in the way they are being believed and taught, but the opposite. Baha'is say that all of them have let false teachings creep in and they no longer have the pure teaching from God and the manifestation. So again, causing a division. A division between, what they believe to be, truth from error. Is this right or wrong? Can a Baha'i go up to any Christian and tell them that all their beliefs are exactly right?

That might be true except that Baha’is believe as much if not more than Christians in Jesus yet see the resurrection as symbolical of the rise of Christianity after His Passing and His appearances afterwards as visions, like that on Mount Tabor which was a vision. We don’t require ‘make believe’ to accept Christ or any of the Prophets.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say you believe in a different interpretation about Jesus. Which to Baha'is is the true interpretation about Jesus. If the Baha'is are correct, then what believe about Jesus is not only more but better than what Christians believe about him. Because Baha'is believe they are wrong.

About the resurrection... I'm not saying it is true. I'm saying that the way it is told in the NT, it makes it clear that Jesus came back into life into some sort of body. A body that had flesh and bone, so it was some type of physical body. If you want to say that the resurrection never happened, and it was some kind of hoax, I'll listen to that. Because the NT also claims that Jesus brought two dead people back to life, and during his crucifixion, dead people came out of their graves. I can believe those stories were false and were made up. But I also believe that the NT claims that those things really took place. And if they didn't, it is a book of lies and made-up myths, legends and religious traditions. And I'm absolutely fine with that. But that is not what Baha'is claim. It is the claim that those things did happen, just not literally. They were symbolic stories. You want to believe that great. I don't think that is true. Which is not a trivial thing to say, because it makes the Baha'i Faith false.

In Revelation it says no one can unseal the true meanings of the prophecies except the Promised One. No priest, not the pope not any human. So ALL interpretations other than that of the Promised One will be wrong. Who is that One? That is where all the answers to your questions lie because none of us are able to unseal the books meanings. That’s what the Bible says in both Daniel and Revelation.

If you've read Robert Riggs book "The Apocalypse Unsealed" then I hope that you'd read Sen Mcglinn's commentary and critique of it.

I'm no Bible scholar, but it seems to me the main character of Revelation is this "Lamb" I think that is talking about Jesus. Obviously, Baha'is don't. I don't agree with several things Abdul Baha' says about Revelation. As I recall the Umayyads and the Abbasids were made out to be the beasts and the dragons. 666 was made out to be a date, I think it was 661 AD with the missing five years being added because Jesus was not born in year "0". But my biggest complaint has always been that Abdul Baha' makes the "Three Woes" the appearing of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. We don't have to rehash those things again. If you think all that is true, then what can I say? But still, in Revelation... Does the Promised One come before or after the great tribulations? And in Revelation, when he comes, what does he do?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which Scriptures? What Scriptures from Hinduism and Buddhism do Baha'is recognize as being true and from God?

But then there is this thing about causing "division"? Where in the Bible are any other religions mentioned as being true? Then in the NT... What other religions or beliefs other than the things taught in the NT are said to be true? It is causing a division, but to Jews of the Bible and Christians with the NT, it was dividing truth from error and God's true religion from false Gods and religions. And I really don't see any difference with the Baha'i Faith. Baha'i aren't saying Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity or any other religions are true, in the way they are being believed and taught, but the opposite. Baha'is say that all of them have let false teachings creep in and they no longer have the pure teaching from God and the manifestation. So again, causing a division. A division between, what they believe to be, truth from error. Is this right or wrong? Can a Baha'i go up to any Christian and tell them that all their beliefs are exactly right?

I wouldn't say that. I'd say you believe in a different interpretation about Jesus. Which to Baha'is is the true interpretation about Jesus. If the Baha'is are correct, then what believe about Jesus is not only more but better than what Christians believe about him. Because Baha'is believe they are wrong.

About the resurrection... I'm not saying it is true. I'm saying that the way it is told in the NT, it makes it clear that Jesus came back into life into some sort of body. A body that had flesh and bone, so it was some type of physical body. If you want to say that the resurrection never happened, and it was some kind of hoax, I'll listen to that. Because the NT also claims that Jesus brought two dead people back to life, and during his crucifixion, dead people came out of their graves. I can believe those stories were false and were made up. But I also believe that the NT claims that those things really took place. And if they didn't, it is a book of lies and made-up myths, legends and religious traditions. And I'm absolutely fine with that. But that is not what Baha'is claim. It is the claim that those things did happen, just not literally. They were symbolic stories. You want to believe that great. I don't think that is true. Which is not a trivial thing to say, because it makes the Baha'i Faith false.

If you've read Robert Riggs book "The Apocalypse Unsealed" then I hope that you'd read Sen Mcglinn's commentary and critique of it.

I'm no Bible scholar, but it seems to me the main character of Revelation is this "Lamb" I think that is talking about Jesus. Obviously, Baha'is don't. I don't agree with several things Abdul Baha' says about Revelation. As I recall the Umayyads and the Abbasids were made out to be the beasts and the dragons. 666 was made out to be a date, I think it was 661 AD with the missing five years being added because Jesus was not born in year "0". But my biggest complaint has always been that Abdul Baha' makes the "Three Woes" the appearing of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. We don't have to rehash those things again. If you think all that is true, then what can I say? But still, in Revelation... Does the Promised One come before or after the great tribulations? And in Revelation, when he comes, what does he do?

All scriptures which teach us to be virtuous and of upright character are pure truth and God approves of them. It doesn’t matter which religion Buddhism or Hinduism both are full of truth and goodness. Hinduism teach ahimsa which is to be peaceful and do not harm with one’s words or deeds. How true and beautiful. How can we not accept that? And Buddha taught so many wise things such as to destroy hate with love. How can we say that is not ultimate truth? How can we not believe in these wonderful sayings? No matter which religion or even no religion we can accept them.

The truth exists in all religions and is still there. But as to interpretations each religion is divided against itself as to the true meanings. However the Holy Books state that only the Promised One can unravel the true meanings.

About the Riggs book. It’s just the opinion of an individual Baha’i which carries no authority except for the passages quoting Baha’i scriptures. But interpretation and commentary is just personal opinion. We can learn by personal study but never can say our interpretations are truth. Only God and His Messengers know the exact truth and unless They tell us we don’t know.

Baha’u’llah tells us that many of these terms such as ‘return’ and resurrection are spiritual definitions not literal meanings. Otherwise verses which speak of things like ‘stars falling upon the earth’ how are we to understand them? Stars are thousands of times the size of the earth and if the stars fell upon the earth then how would the Messiah appear as the earth would be destroyed?

As to ‘Woes’. How do you think the Iranian clergy see Baha’u’llah and the Bab? They fear all Iran will join the Faith and there will be no clergy so they will be out of a job. That to them makes the Bab and Baha’u’llah Woes.

The thing I ask you to keep in mind is that the Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual things not a novel and should be treated as such so that we look for the spiritual truths it is trying to teach us.

Another one. The seven days of creation. Abdul-Baha said this was not referring to the creation of the world but referring to divine days, which are the days on which a manifestation of God appears about once every thousand years. If we do an estimate of how many Manifestations of God have appeared we can get seven Abraham, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, Christ, Muhammad which appeared since Adam.

Scientists can prove that the world is about 4.5 billion years old but remember the Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual matters so 7 revelations from God over a 7,000 year period makes far more sense and can be supported historically. Why cling to such superstitious interpretations when science can clearly debunk this baseless argument.

The same with bodily resurrection. I dreamt the other day I saw Baha’u’llah. But it was a dream? But it was exactly Him. So now do I write a Gospel that Baha’u’llah visited me and I prostrated myself before Him? That’s exactly what happened in the dream. It was Baha’u’llah in His Robe. But Baha’u’llah died in 1892. Yet He was alive. I saw Him. How do we explain that to people write it down? After a thousand years how are people going to interpret it if I didn’t mention it was a dream? That Baha’u’llah never died?

The dream was true I had it last Monday.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If, in the beginning, Christianity didn't have a dying and rising God/man, do you really think it would have caught on so well?

Yes.
There are billions of Muslims, too.

 

[Elihoenai]

I wish to explore what it means to be a Christian and follower of Christ. What does it mean to identity as Christian and non-Christian.

I attended an interfaith gathering recently and initially there were six Christians, one Buddhist and a Baha'i. The theme was 'hope' and we were sharing from our respective faith traditions what that meant. The Christians certainly had a great deal to say and then I offered to share a perspective from outside of Christianity. I shared a story about Muhammed and the circumstances leading to the Muslims flight to Ethiopia to escape the persecution from the Qureshi.

The Christian chair thanked me for sharing a 'non-Christian' perspective. In hindsight I felt uncomfortable with the words non-Christian and felt a better phrase would have simply call it a Baha'i perspective.

So what does it mean to be a Christian or non-Christian. At what point are these labels helpful and when do they simply fuel division and tribalism?

Thoughts? Questions? Thanks in advance for sharing.

In Christendom what identifies a Christian are the Sacraments of Baptism and Communion, Church Membership/Attendance and Confession to a Priest/Pastor. Additionally for the Pentecostal types, you must get the Holy Spirit.

You become a member of the Church that you are Baptised in.

Therefore a Non-Christian in Christendom is a person that doesn't do the requirements listed above. Especially if the person has not been Baptised, as this is the first step on the Christian journey.

 

[syo]

what it means to be a Christian and follower of Christ.

Do you know the original creed? That's it.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
By whom all things were made
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

 

[CG Didymus]

The same with bodily resurrection. I dreamt the other day I saw Baha’u’llah. But it was a dream? But it was exactly Him. So now do I write a Gospel that Baha’u’llah visited me and I prostrated myself before Him? That’s exactly what happened in the dream. It was Baha’u’llah in His Robe. But Baha’u’llah died in 1892. Yet He was alive. I saw Him. How do we explain that to people write it down? After a thousand years how are people going to interpret it if I didn’t mention it was a dream? That Baha’u’llah never died?

So, is that what you really believe? That all four gospel stories went from the crucifixion to the burial of Jesus to a dream about him appearing to be alive?

No, to repeat, I'd don't care if it is totally made up, but the gospels present the story as if it was an actual event witnessed by lots of people. Call them liars. Call the whole story just a legend. But if it is, then the NT is not the word of God but the words and fantasies of men. And that would be fine. Like I've said before, I have no problem believing the NT is nothing but religious myth. But it was told to people as if it was true. And that story is what Christianity is all about. The dying and rising... and the coming again of Jesus.