Where is Civil Rights for Gays and Lesbians- Why did a law like Prop 8 even Pass?

[Rainbow Mage]

What does a law like Prop 8 passing show about our country? Gays and lesbians have been fighting for our rights since the 50's and earlier. What do we have to show for it? The courts and conservative judges act like if a hate crime happens it's somehow our fault, and imply that we were flaunting or hitting on our attacker. Prop 8 passed in California, showing that obviously the majority of Californians hate gay people. Where is our civil rights? After over 50 years? Where is civil rights? I demand my rights.

 

[LuisDantas]

I participated in the forums discussions about Prop 8 at the time.

From that I have a hunch that most people who oppose same-sex marriage would not admit to hating gay people. It is fear of change, not all-out hate, that motivates them.

To a degree that is a good thing. Hate is hard to remove. Fear of change, not as much.

It seems to me that the core of the troubles involving SSM are born out of the dificulty of dialog between conservatives and freedom advocates. Far too many people sincerely believe homosexuality to be something inherently wrong, to be "cured" or at least hidden.

One of the consequences of that mistake is that they unconsciously expect homosexuals to be ashamed of who they are, as if they were criminals. There is no way to overcome that sorry situation except by winning the hearts and minds of those who fear homosexual people. Dialog should be nurtured, for it is the only way of dissolving the fear of change that currently scares the proponents and supporters of Prop 8 and similar initiatives.

The bottom line is that I don't think this is much of a legal matter, despite superficial appearances. The challenge is still and above all else primarily one of social integration, and can only be solved at that level. Once enough conservatives realize that Same Sex Marriage is no more of a threat than, say, ponytails in males, the resistance will vanish, I'm certain of it.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

We live in a government base off of what the majority of people want. So the people in California are against same sex marriage, just convince more people to your side next time a vote like that comes around.

 

[Gunfingers]

We live in a government base off of what the majority of people want. So the people in California are against same sex marriage, just convince more people to your side next time a vote like that comes around.

Actually, we live in a constitutional republic, and the majority aren't supposed to be able to infringe upon the rights of the minority.

Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way in practice.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Right Gunfingers

 

[fallingblood]

Look at how long people of darker skin color, primarily African Americans, took to get their civil rights. It took much longer than it has for the homosexuals to get some civil rights. It is a process that takes a lot of time, simply because people are afraid of change.

Also, it hasn't been until relatively recently that homosexuals have come into mainstream, and to a place where more people are being exposed to the idea. However, there has been considerable progress.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Falling blood why are there still judges that basically imply that victims of gay hate crimes deserve to be victimized?

 

[fallingblood]

Falling blood why are there still judges that basically imply that victims of gay hate crimes deserve to be victimized?

Why are their judges that basically imply that victims of black hate crimes deserve to be victimized? In both cases, those judges are a minority.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

When it comes to voting, people will be more motivated to do so, when it's regarding something they feel personally affects them. Even if a majority of straight people are in favor of gay rights, or claim to be, they are generally not going to be nearly as motivated to vote as straight people who hate homosexuals. For homophobes, gay marriage is an issue they take personally and seriously. For non-homophobic straight people, it's, for the most part, not something they feel affects them personally.

 

[MSizer]

George Bush said that he wanted more "sensible" people in the supreme court who "understand that our rights come from god". If the president can say something as utterly ludicrous as this, do you seriously expect that gay rights could be any further advanced yet than they are? No, put bluntly. Too many people are stupid to allow such progress yet.

 

[dust1n]

I participated in the forums discussions about Prop 8 at the time.

From that I have a hunch that most people who oppose same-sex marriage would not admit to hating gay people. It is fear of change, not all-out hate, that motivates them.

To a degree that is a good thing. Hate is hard to remove. Fear of change, not as much.

It seems to me that the core of the troubles involving SSM are born out of the dificulty of dialog between conservatives and freedom advocates. Far too many people sincerely believe homosexuality to be something inherently wrong, to be "cured" or at least hidden.

One of the consequences of that mistake is that they unconsciously expect homosexuals to be ashamed of who they are, as if they were criminals. There is no way to overcome that sorry situation except by winning the hearts and minds of those who fear homosexual people. Dialog should be nurtured, for it is the only way of dissolving the fear of change that currently scares the proponents and supporters of Prop 8 and similar initiatives.

The bottom line is that I don't think this is much of a legal matter, despite superficial appearances. The challenge is still and above all else primarily one of social integration, and can only be solved at that level. Once enough conservatives realize that Same Sex Marriage is no more of a threat than, say, ponytails in males, the resistance will vanish, I'm certain of it.

Where are any civil rights protesters act? Human rights?

 

[Happy1]

To believe that people hate Gays for not voting gay marriage in is blinding one's self to the realty of our governments influence. Just as they kept blacks and whites at each other's throat... so goes for gays and straights.

Truth be that if gays were given all the benefits of marriage it would cost the government a fortune. To start with they would have to pay out on social security and medicare for the spouses... give a fair tax deduction... pensions formally unclaimed and turned over to the government would now go to the spouse.

As far as belief wise - I belive God alone can judge me or them.
Blessings to all
The Happy1

p.s I think that the government is winning- they have gays and straights arguing over the word marriage rather than the more inportant social and financial issues. Every year Webster "throws" words out because the meaning has changed or no longer applies..

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Truth be that if gays were given all the benefits of marriage it would cost the government a fortune. To start with they would have to pay out on social security and medicare for the spouses... give a fair tax deduction... pensions formally unclaimed and turned over to the government would now go to the spouse.

Actually, the tax laws the government set up is to encourage people to get married. The government would actually make money.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well as for me, I am not giving up the fight until we have our rights. I will continue to fight for our rights until my last breath, and many other gays and lesbians will continue to fight with me.

 

[fallingblood]

Well as for me, I am not giving up the fight until we have our rights. I will continue to fight for our rights until my last breath, and many other gays and lesbians will continue to fight with me.

Can I ask just what rights you are looking for. I guess I'm just not very aware of all the rights. I know there is the right for gay marriage (I personally disagree since marriage is a religious ceremony, but I would not be against the idea of something similar. Or even not thinking of it, I probably wouldn't be against marriage anyway seeing that the religious sanctity of it is basically a joke anymore).

But what other rights?

 

[LuisDantas]

Where are any civil rights protesters act? Human rights?

Pardon me? I just don't understand what you are asking about.

 

[LuisDantas]

(...) I know there is the right for gay marriage (I personally disagree since marriage is a religious ceremony, but I would not be against the idea of something similar. (...)

Prop 8 didn't touch religious marriage at all. It is civil marriage, which involves quite a few rights that are otherwise denied to homosexual couples, that it delimitated in a more restrictive way.

 

[LuisDantas]

Truth be that if gays were given all the benefits of marriage it would cost the government a fortune. To start with they would have to pay out on social security and medicare for the spouses... give a fair tax deduction... pensions formally unclaimed and turned over to the government would now go to the spouse.

Even assuming that these claims are true, that would be no reason to forbid same sex marriage.

If anything, those would be arguments against any and all marriages.

As far as belief wise - I belive God alone can judge me or them.

Even so, it is up to us mortal people to decide on the matter.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

We live in a government base off of what the majority of people want. So the people in California are against same sex marriage, just convince more people to your side next time a vote like that comes around.

At one time in the south a majority of whites were against blacks and whites being married. When the Miscegenation law was voted down in the late 1990's in Alabama 48% of the voters wanted to keep the law on the books. The job of the government to protect the rights of the minorities from the majority.

So do you believe that if I got a majority of people to vote that all interracial marriage should be against the law. It would be ok to make it illegal to merry out side your race.

 

[dust1n]

Pardon me? I just don't understand what you are asking about.

Sorry.. just commenting on the lack of any serious activism. It's not just GLBT rights, but many others as well. I imagine when one increases the rest will.