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Where tax money funds public schools teaching creationism as science

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Creationism in public schools, mapped. Where tax money supports alternatives to evolution. (Religious Right Watch)

It's worse than I thought. And people wonder why our kids don't fare well worldwide in education and intelligence.

I take no stand on how tax money should be spent in education. I do take exception to alternatives to education being label "creationism". Intelligent Design theory does not equate to YEC. I believe forcing any theory, be it evolution theory or ID theory down the gullets of young ones, with no discussion of alternatives, smacks of totalitarian control, and is nothing but propaganda.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I take no stand on how tax money should be spent in education. I do take exception to alternatives to education being label "creationism". Intelligent Design theory does not equate to YEC. I believe forcing any theory, be it evolution theory or ID theory down the gullets of young ones, with no discussion of alternatives, smacks of totalitarian control, and is nothing but propaganda.
In other words . . .
27.gif

Yeah, sure :facepalm:
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I take no stand on how tax money should be spent in education. I do take exception to alternatives to education being label "creationism". Intelligent Design theory does not equate to YEC. I believe forcing any theory, be it evolution theory or ID theory down the gullets of young ones, with no discussion of alternatives, smacks of totalitarian control, and is nothing but propaganda.

1. ID was an attempt by creationists to make creationism sound more scientific and less dogmatic; both reason and the courts agreed.
2. How is teaching science as science "totalitarian control"? Are we going to start teaching religious dogma in science classes now just because some people are getting offended that religious mythology and superstition isn't being taught as scientific truth?
3. If we teach Christian versions of creationism in science classes, why not Hindu? Why not Islamic? Why not any of the other 200 + religious creation myths?
4. If we start teaching religious creation myths as science, why stop there? Why not start teaching kids that germs don't cause disease, but god does when you do wrong? Or, gravity isn't what keeps things down, it's god? Or, the earth doesn't float in space supported by nothing, but by the gods? Where does it stop?
5. Why teach critical thinking and logical analysis when all you really need is the bible, which, by the way, teaches that those things, and others like philosophy and science, are evil?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In other words . . .
27.gif

Yeah, sure :facepalm:

So, which pictures represent the ToE? I ask because of what Michael Denton wrote about evolution theory in his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. He wrote that the theory of evolution “is more like a principle of medieval astrology than a serious . . . scientific theory.” He also called Darwinian evolution one of the great myths of our time. And he is not the only biologist to do express disbelief in evolution, a theory propped up more from hubris than science.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1. ID was an attempt by creationists to make creationism sound more scientific and less dogmatic; both reason and the courts agreed.
2. How is teaching science as science "totalitarian control"? Are we going to start teaching religious dogma in science classes now just because some people are getting offended that religious mythology and superstition isn't being taught as scientific truth?
3. If we teach Christian versions of creationism in science classes, why not Hindu? Why not Islamic? Why not any of the other 200 + religious creation myths?
4. If we start teaching religious creation myths as science, why stop there? Why not start teaching kids that germs don't cause disease, but god does when you do wrong? Or, gravity isn't what keeps things down, it's god? Or, the earth doesn't float in space supported by nothing, but by the gods? Where does it stop?
5. Why teach critical thinking and logical analysis when all you really need is the bible, which, by the way, teaches that those things, and others like philosophy and science, are evil?

Surely you must know that reputable scientists support ID as scientific. But evolutionists dishonestly seek to label any evidence presented contrary to their world view as "creationism" and "myth". And your statement that the Bible teaches that thinking and logical analysis and science are evil is simply not true.
It appears that many in the evolution camp want to dictate to everyone what is science and what is not, and to exclude any critical thinking that disagrees with theirs. I think that is shameful, and ultimately will fail.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Surely you must know that reputable scientists support ID as scientific. But evolutionists dishonestly seek to label any evidence presented contrary to their world view as "creationism" and "myth". And your statement that the Bible teaches that thinking and logical analysis and science are evil is simply not true.
It appears that many in the evolution camp want to dictate to everyone what is science and what is not, and to exclude any critical thinking that disagrees with theirs. I think that is shameful, and ultimately will fail.

I don't read that much about evolution, biology really isn't my forte; I'm more into physics and astronomy. But I've never read a "reputable scientist" dismiss evolution and teach ID instead. I have seen you quote-mine scientists who teach evolution, but don't necessarily accept commonly accepted theories about it, and use those quotes to try and "prove" that they disagree with evolution. And you've been called out on that, and have yet to answer them. What's really sad, is the fact that creationists can't seem to accept the fact that there is no science supporting their claims, and fight tooth and nail so they can hold onto their mythology. I understand, I was once in that same position. Eventually reality has to be accepted for what it is, though, and fairy tales have to be given up. And while you would like to believe that the bible doesn't teach that philosophy and science are evil, I suggest you reread what Paul said about the subject.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Surely you must know that reputable scientists support ID as scientific.
I'd like to see an actual cogent argument that ID is science.
Looking at elements of the scientific method....
Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Four essential elements[45][46][47] of the scientific method[48] are iterations,[49][50] recursions,[51] interleavings, or orderings of the following:
....I haven't seen ID proponents make predictions based upon their hypotheses which are confirmed in experiments. If this isn't doable, then the hypotheses aren't even falsifiable, ie, they aren't "scientific".
Recalling Wolfgang Pauli's famous snarky comment of another physicist's paper.....It's not only not right, it's not even wrong.
To restate: If you can't prove it wrong, it isn't science.

Evolution is a theory which makes predictions, is falsifiable, & is useful. There was a brief article in Popular Science recently about simulating evolution of a mass of muscle, soft tissue & bone. After only 1000 generations, we see multiple novel structures emerging (new information), all resulting from initial conditions & a stochastic process guided only by random mutation & a fitness function (fast locomotion).
Virtual, squishy creatures evolve to run using evolutionary algorithms
A video of their results:
[youtube]z9ptOeByLA4[/youtube]
Evolving Soft Robots with Multiple Materials (muscle, bone, etc.) - YouTube
 
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dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
That's one of the most telling things about why evolution is right. It's given us advances in medicine and other areas, where creationism has given us...nothing.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's one of the most telling things about why evolution is right. It's given us advances in medicine and other areas, where creationism has given us...nothing.

Surely you are not claiming it is necessary to believe in evolution to create advances in medicine, are you? I believe what the ToE has given us are the philosophical underpinnings for the worst century of violence in history. Again, creationism is not ID.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Riiiight.... So you believe a computer simulation, created by an ID, is proof of evolution? Really?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Surely you are not claiming it is necessary to believe in evolution to create advances in medicine, are you? I believe what the ToE has given us are the philosophical underpinnings for the worst century of violence in history. Again, creationism is not ID.

The challenge is whether or not ID is scientific. Is it testable? Is it falsifiable? Can the hypotheses from ID make predictions in its research? Are findings offered up for peer review?

In other words, does ID allow itself the room to be wrong?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Riiiight.... So you believe a computer simulation, created by an ID, is proof of evolution? Really?
Did you see me use the word "proof" in my post? No, you didn't

Some background about science:
We may form theories, test their predictions, & verify them repeatedly in different circumstances. But they're never proven "true", because in this material world, there will always be other untested circumstances where the theory might be revealed to be wrong or a special case of a broader theory. This happened when Newton's laws of gravitation were applied to planets, & showed inaccuracies. They were eventually subsumed into general relativity as a special case. To paraphrase George Box, all theories are wrong, but some are useful. "Useful" is the ability to make predictions accurately. As I showed in the prior post, evolution is useful in generating sophisticated designs (new information) using simple algorithms over many generations. Again I ask, what predictions does ID make which we can test?

I'll say that a mathematical model of evolution may be proven true (a priori), but not make
that claim about evolution of species (a posteriori), even if it fits that model. By repeated
verification (not proof) of a theory's validity, we only gain confidence in its usefulness.
 
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dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Surely you are not claiming it is necessary to believe in evolution to create advances in medicine, are you?

No, that's just one of it's benefits. I'm pointing out the fact that it does, shows it's validity.

I believe what the ToE has given us are the philosophical underpinnings for the worst century of violence in history. Again, creationism is not ID.

Uh, what? You're really going to have to offer examples of how a scientific idea has spawned violence, and especially more so than believers in creationism.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, that's just one of it's benefits. I'm pointing out the fact that it does, shows it's validity.



Uh, what? You're really going to have to offer examples of how a scientific idea has spawned violence, and especially more so than believers in creationism.

I find your feigned ignorance of the ToE effects on society disingenuous. Carl Marx said regarding The Origin of Species "Darwin's book serves me as a natural scientific basis for the class struggle in history." We all know the bloody history of Communism, based on Marx's theories. Of course, some evolutionists will deny this connection, as they deny all the evidence for ID. As to creationism, I believe the claim that God created the universe in 6 24-hour days is false, and is clearly not taught in the Bible. (Genesis 1:1) So I agree false "Christianity" is also guilty of massive violence and murder. True Christians reject war and violence. (2 Corinthians 10:3,4; Romans 12:18 and many other scriptures)
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I find your feigned ignorance of the ToE effects on society disingenuous. Carl Marx said regarding The Origin of Species "Darwin's book serves me as a natural scientific basis for the class struggle in history." We all know the bloody history of Communism, based on Marx's theories. Of course, some evolutionists will deny this connection, as they deny all the evidence for ID. As to creationism, I believe the claim that God created the universe in 6 24-hour days is false, and is clearly not taught in the Bible. (Genesis 1:1) So I agree false "Christianity" is also guilty of massive violence and murder. True Christians reject war and violence. (2 Corinthians 10:3,4; Romans 12:18 and many other scriptures)

I find your equation of the scientific theory of evolution with communism and violence to be quite telling of your bias against it in favor of faith and dogma. What's really funny is that you quote Karl Marx, who was one who favored equality for all people, as an example...really? Surely you can do better than that. And let's not forget, people can claim all kinds of things as inspiration for all kinds of actions, but this doesn't make any of it true. Let's not forget it was Hitler who claimed it was his Christian faith who inspired him against the Jews. And, without a shred of sarcasm, you then use the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, in suggesting that "true Christians" don't believe this or do that. You really need to brush up on your studies of logic. Come back and discuss this with me when you have.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I find your equation of the scientific theory of evolution with communism and violence to be quite telling of your bias against it in favor of faith and dogma. What's really funny is that you quote Karl Marx, who was one who favored equality for all people, as an example...really? Surely you can do better than that. And let's not forget, people can claim all kinds of things as inspiration for all kinds of actions, but this doesn't make any of it true. Let's not forget it was Hitler who claimed it was his Christian faith who inspired him against the Jews. And, without a shred of sarcasm, you then use the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, in suggesting that "true Christians" don't believe this or do that. You really need to brush up on your studies of logic. Come back and discuss this with me when you have.

Unfortunately for those who seek to hide the truth, we can all now check up on assertions made. Here is a quote from evolution news.org:"In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock writes: "The basis of Hitler's political beliefs was a crude Darwinism." What Hitler found objectionable about Christianity was its rejection of the conclusions that followed from Darwin's theory: "Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest." Joachim C. Fest, in Hitler, describes how the Nazi tyrant "extract[ed] the elements of his world view" from various influences including "popular treatments of Darwinism." Hitler, like lots of other Europeans and Americans of his day, saw Darwinism as offering a total picture of social reality. In his biography, Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris, Ian Kershaw explains that "crude social-Darwinism" gave Hitler "his entire political 'world-view.'" John Toland's Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, finally, says this of Hitler's "Second Book" (1928), never published in his lifetime: "An essential of Hitler's conclusions in this book was the conviction drawn from Darwin that might makes right."

As to what is a true Christian, the Bible is the authority, and I believe it plainly teaches that not all or even a majority of those claiming to be Christians really are such. (Matthew 7:13,14) As Jesus himself stated:"“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"(Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus also said "You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14) the "no true Scotsman" assertion is fallacious and misleading.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Unfortunately for those who seek to hide the truth, we can all now check up on assertions made. Here is a quote from evolution news.org:"In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock writes: "The basis of Hitler's political beliefs was a crude Darwinism." What Hitler found objectionable about Christianity was its rejection of the conclusions that followed from Darwin's theory: "Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest." Joachim C. Fest, in Hitler, describes how the Nazi tyrant "extract[ed] the elements of his world view" from various influences including "popular treatments of Darwinism." Hitler, like lots of other Europeans and Americans of his day, saw Darwinism as offering a total picture of social reality. In his biography, Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris, Ian Kershaw explains that "crude social-Darwinism" gave Hitler "his entire political 'world-view.'" John Toland's Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, finally, says this of Hitler's "Second Book" (1928), never published in his lifetime: "An essential of Hitler's conclusions in this book was the conviction drawn from Darwin that might makes right."

And Hitler made the same mistake you, and most creationists make: that there's some sort of "social Darwinism" philosophy that actually exists. All it is, is an attempt by those who reject evolution to try to paint it in a bad light. The problem is, is that those who espouse such a thing as social Darwinism fail to understand it's science in it's totality. So, when you can explain how and why "social Darwinism" has anything to do with evolution, then you can make the connection. Until then, no dice.

As to what is a true Christian, the Bible is the authority, and I believe it plainly teaches that not all or even a majority of those claiming to be Christians really are such. (Matthew 7:13,14) As Jesus himself stated:"“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"(Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus also said "You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14) the "no true Scotsman" assertion is fallacious and misleading.

I'm not going to get into a polemical debate about how or who or what determines who is a "true Christian." But I think it's funny that many Christians would say the same about you. And use the bible to prove it. So the "no true Scotsman" fallacy stands.

Of course, let me turn it around. No one who understands the actual science of evolution would even dare to admit to such a thing as the "social Darwinism" philosophy. The plus side of my statement is that it has science to back it, instead of metaphysical speculation, which is all you can seem to assert.

Now, back on page 3 of this thread, I asked you several questions in several posts that you have yet to answer. So I'll repost them all here for ease:

1. How is teaching science as science "totalitarian control"? Are we going to start teaching religious dogma in science classes now just because some people are getting offended that religious mythology and superstition isn't being taught as scientific truth?
2. If we teach Christian versions of creationism in science classes, why not Hindu? Why not Islamic? Why not any of the other 200 + religious creation myths?
3. If we start teaching religious creation myths as science, why stop there? Why not start teaching kids that germs don't cause disease, but god does when you do wrong? Or, gravity isn't what keeps things down, it's god? Or, the earth doesn't float in space supported by nothing, but by the gods? Where does it stop?
4. If evolution is so wrong, how has it been right in the advances in medicine that has occurred due to our knowledge of evolution?

These are not rhetorical, please answer them, if you're able.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Unfortunately for those who seek to hide the truth, we can all now check up on assertions made. Here is a quote from evolution news.org:"In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock writes...
That is one person's opinion of Hitler, & more complicated than you might think.
Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Raised a Catholic, Hitler followed a murky & meandering religious path, one which still embraced God & Jesus.

But you're introducing a straw man. The validity of a scientific theory is not reduced just because some use it as a basis for immoral acts. Were that so, you'd have to reject genetics & perhaps even sociology. Any branch of science can be be a basis or pretext for evil, just as any religion can, eg, the Christian Crusades, Islamic terrorism, clergy abuse of children.

Back to an earlier question of mine:
What experimental tests of ID are there?
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Unfortunately for those who seek to hide the truth, we can all now check up on assertions made. Here is a quote from evolution news.org:"In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock writes: "The basis of Hitler's political beliefs was a crude Darwinism." What Hitler found objectionable about Christianity was its rejection of the conclusions that followed from Darwin's theory: "Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest." Joachim C. Fest, in Hitler, describes how the Nazi tyrant "extract[ed] the elements of his world view" from various influences including "popular treatments of Darwinism." Hitler, like lots of other Europeans and Americans of his day, saw Darwinism as offering a total picture of social reality. In his biography, Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris, Ian Kershaw explains that "crude social-Darwinism" gave Hitler "his entire political 'world-view.'" John Toland's Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, finally, says this of Hitler's "Second Book" (1928), never published in his lifetime: "An essential of Hitler's conclusions in this book was the conviction drawn from Darwin that might makes right."

Hitler doesn't decide what evolution is. He was wrong. Social Darwinism is a fiction based on misunderstanding what evolution actually is. Hitler and the Nazis also completely twisted Nietzsche's philosophy, even though Nietzsche would've completely hated the Nazis and he is probably one of the greatest philosophers there ever was.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Why Creationism Isn’t Science

I found this article at Patheos, and it's quite enlightening. It shows first how creationism cannot be scientific as it cannot use the scientific method, and then at the bottom, it shows the anti-science attitude of creationist organizations, and how they refuse to allow creationism to be scientific. Something is amiss...
 
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