Where Was God...

[SkylarHunter]

How much daily crap fixing and puppeteer string-pulling would people want? How much ignorance, cowardice, cruelty, etc. will be Divine responsibility to fix and combat vs humans responsibility?

Those were exactly the same questions that came to my mind.

Haven't read anything from you in a while. Great to have you back Sees

 

[Thanda]

This is precicely the reason why I think god is not all-loving, god isn't completely omnipotent, there are multiple conflicting gods, or they're to busy sleeping

God certainly is omnipotent but the question is, what is omnipotence? Is it the ability to do anything, even the things you don't want to do? God has already said that he cannot lie. Therefore omnipotence cannot mean he can do absolutely anything.

My understanding of God's omnipotence is that he can do anything He wants to do. But since he is loving he only ever wants to do the loving thing. Then the question naturally comes up: is it loving to allow people to suffer?

Well, if you have ever raised kids you would understand that love sometimes requires that you allow your kids to experience tough times in order to develop their character. You also realise that you have to allow them to make mistakes and to experience the effect of their mistakes in order for them to grow. Love doesn't necessarily require that you shield you child from difficult experiences.

Therefore, no amount of pointing out the evil and suffering in the world can prove that God is not omnipotent and all loving at the same time.

 

[Thanda]

Why should we assume god is omnipotent? Seeing as we are speaking generally, and not speaking of specific faiths there is no reason why we assume god, or our "creator" has omnipotence. The definition of omnipotence is the power to do absolutely anything. Period. Thats the definition. I am unsure which god you are referring to but if your god did say he can not lie, yet claims to be omnipotent, that means they were saying they will not let themselves lie due to moral reasons, instead of actually not having the ability to.

I am of course speaking of the God of the Abrahamic faith (which you referenced in the comment I replied to).

Yes then you seem to have it right. God is omnipotent which means he can do anything though, for his own reasons, he won't necessarily do everything.

If gods opinion is that standing by events like the halocaust, 9/11, the bombing in the middle east done by NATO and the murders of innocent children done worldwide because they will "develop" the human race further is actually insane. If a god will willfully stand by and watch those murders, when he has the power to stop them easily, he is not all loving.

It is your opinion that it is insane. But you should be humble and honest enough to admit that your belief that it is insane is based on the limited knowledge you have about how human beings learn and develop.

 

[Unification]

I can't help but look back on events that have happened in the past 15 years and wonder "where was God?" The events that I cite are for example purposes only. In no way am I trying to cause someone pain, heart ache, or dishonoring the dead.

1. September 11, 2001: four planes are hijacked by terrorists. Two are crashed into the WTC, one hits the Pentagon and one goes down in a field. Thousands of people lost their lives, many of whom have nothing to do with what is going on in the Middle East. Where was God?

2. Afghanistan and Iraq (21st century): US forces travel in convoys and are under strict orders of "DO NOT STOP." If they do stop for civilians, those same civilians will try to run up to the convoy and steal food, water, supplies, etc. Parents would toss their young children on the road in front of the convoys, trying to make them stop...but the convoys couldn't. Imagine being the driver of that lead vehicle and having to run over a child because of a desperate parent. Where was God?

3. I have had numerous cases where a child (toddler) was beaten to death by an adult. Where was God?

4. I had a case where an ~80 year old widowed white woman had been married to her husband for 60+ years, had only been with him, and was a devout Christian. A ~20 year old black male broke into her house, beat the crap out of her and raped her. I can't imagine the psychological torment she experiences to this day. Where was God?

5. Refugees are fleeing Syria by the millions. On September 2, 2015, two boats carrying refugees capsized at sea. One of the deceased has been all over the news...it was a three year old little boy who drowned and his lifeless body washed up on a beach in Turkey. What possible purpose was there in that boy's death? Where was God?

6. ISIS is murdering people left and right in extremely grotesque manners. They are beheading people SLOWLY with knives, drowning people, burning people alive, blowing people's head's off with explosives, and having children (recruits) shoot adult prisoners in the back of the head. Where is God?



I use these examples to drive home a point...

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

Before you answer, know that we have heard it all before:
"God works in mysterious ways"
"We can't know the mind of God"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"We don't see His plan or the bigger picture"
"Satan causes evil and suffering"

Every single one of those answers are nothing but a cop out because you can't logically answer those questions, when you put God in control of everything followed by the notion that He is a loving God. That is my biggest problem with religions/people that make that claim.

The same people will jump to the Satan excuse...that he is the one that causes those things. By that very statement they contradict the claim that God is in control of everything. Is Satan subject to God'a authority or not? Of course I don't believe in the invisible boogeyman called Satan, but I use him to illustrate that point.

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will. With that gift comes great sacrifice, sorrow, pain, misery, hardship and loss of life.

Satan does cause suffering, the ego mind of individuals. One or combine a lot of ego driven minds (Satan's) and misery, pain, and hardship occurs. In order for life to be, all potentials of the spectrum must be, both potential for light and darkness.

If by looking for "God" out there to stop and prevent such, that would be supernatural. Nature is in control, nature doesn't change. Love of life and being is sufficient. Everything is balanced, and even if our minds are imbalanced and separated, and lacking awareness of this, everything is still balanced. We have both free desire and not free desire. Desire isn't free to begin with, it comes with prices... Cause and effect by weighing choices and decisions. Many things also, by nature being in control, we have no control over and it's better to be aware that we are not in control.

And yet, after all of that suffering, morality and unity were at its highest. The affects of the causes and sacrifice. Just as there is cause and affect and reaping what is sown. If it's the physical body that is killed, it shouldn't matter. People should embrace the present of life, love but not become attached, and be aware that there is no guarantee for tomorrow and their life in this body is but a vapor. While one is dying, one is being born. While one is suffering, one is in bliss. Physical and material things perish. That is not a loss of life then, just the physical and body made of matter. I could have been brutally murdered thousands of years ago, and yet here I am. I've died already in many ways, and many times, have had many different fathers and mothers. And each time, wanted to live and have had a sense of "me." I am present. All others are as myself. Also, if a place called heaven exists after physical death, one should be not afraid to physically die, no matter what the manner. I wasn't afraid of being born, I'm not afraid of dying. Same things. That type of teaching should embrace all of the killings and diseases then, and can now see why that's hypocritical. A place called heaven somewhere should lead one to be ready to die in any kind of manner and embrace the defined "evil" that sends people there. Isis would just be doing what most religious labeled "Christians" want, sending them and people to "God" and "heaven."

 

[Thanda]

Could you present knowledge to support that humans needed the holocaust and 9/11 to develop? It seems completely illogical to make that claim

Lessons learned:

The Holocaust:

Nationalism and racial pride can dangerous even deadly.

A charismatic leader is not necessarily the best leader.

9/11:

If you keep interfering in other nations don't be surprised when someone starts interfering with your nation.

 

[Koldo]

It is your opinion that it is insane. But you should be humble and honest enough to admit that your belief that it is insane is based on the limited knowledge you have about how human beings learn and develop.

And that's the really interesting part. Because it seems no evidence could EVER contradict the concept, not even in principle.
If you see a human parent leaving his child to starve nearly to death with the excuse that it helps to build character, you will certainly instantly consider this an insane parent. Even if it is true that it helps to build character.
But the same, for some reason, doesn't apply to God. That's the crazy part.

 

[Thanda]

You see, if god had intervened and prevented the deaths/prejudice, neither of these lessons would be needed.
We knew about racism leading to deaths long before the holocaust, and we knew that if you mess with other people they will try to mess you up.
Neither of these events would have been required for these lessons, and the lessons wouldn't be required if god would just step in.

Learning something means you incorporate it into you life. If there is still racism in the world then many people clearly have not learned.

How exactly would you like God to intervene:would you like him to intervene when you are about to say something nasty to someone? Would you like him to intervene when you are about to wear inappropriate clothing? Would you like him to intervene when you're about to vote for the wrong political party?

Or do you only want him to intervene in the things that you deem to be wrong?

 

[Etritonakin]

Rather than humans needing the holocaust and 9/11 to develop, those things themselves are evidence that man needs to develop past such things.
We didn't need most of everything that has happened throughout human history -and that's the point. That is the lesson mankind as a whole must learn.
We should have done it differently -but we could not have. We can only do things differently in the future.

However, "mankind" is continually renewed -one generation passes on and another takes its place.
We live just long enough to begin to realize the sort of people we ought to be -and then we die.
It is impossible to pass on all lessons and knowledge. Even if we could, rejection of them could not be prevented.

Therefore, we have a personal experience and a collective experience -but we cannot all see the whole of the collective experience -or even apply our personal experience -unless we are all again made alive at some point.
Basically, it's all pointless unless we do live again.

Human history was not so much "necessary" as inevitable. We did not need it so much as we needed to get it over and done with as quickly as possible collectively -and endure as little of it as possible individually.
It is the product of creative beings who are new to all things and then travel to be experienced.
Human history could have been avoided by taking away true individuality and creativity -but that would have made it impossible for God to reproduce himself in his children.
Human children don't understand the way the human world works initially -and human adults don't understand how all things in the universe work initially.

Human history thus far is a set of temporary circumstances and choices which will eventually bring about an end result.
We are born into a situation which could be perfect -but which is not because it was made not perfect by a series and compounding of choices.

Human history was not prevented -nor could it have been prevented by humans due to initial ignorance and other factors.
We can only prevent things which will happen in the future and create a better future, but only if we exist to do so -and know how to do so.

Human history will end in human self-destruction, if it is not prevented by a non-human.
Though we can individually know what it would take to prevent it, we cannot stop the momentum of circumstances or prevent others from doing their own will.
That is the collective lesson we must all learn -that we require the government of a non-human due to the fact that we are new, and the non-human is the source of all knowledge and power -but also order.

Even if mankind were somehow able to create a lasting peace, that would not be much good to all who lived before.

Fortunately, a non-human will prevent complete human self-destruction -and will make all alive again to see all of human history from the perspective of the future.
Then they can apply the personal lessons learned -prevent repeating the collective lesson in the future -and acknowledge the necessity of referencing the source of order and the one able to order all things.

Then, all of the negative aspects of human history can be nullified by repairing all negative effects.... physical destruction, psychological pain, etc., etc....

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.....

Human history could have been prevented -but it would have meant preventing the future.... which will be well worth the trouble -especially as the trouble will no longer be called to mind.

Isa 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create..................

 

[psychoslice]

No, of course not. But even metaphorically, it is a story of a deity causing societal division on some level.

A deity ?.

 

[Neo Deist]

The Adversary (as properly translated from the Hebrew) does cause suffering...

Fixed it for you.

I agree...any adversary can cause suffering for you. When I lose a game of chess to an adversary, it pisses me off. I am highly competitive!

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Do you really want God to step in and stop bad things from happening? People know it is harmful to smoke but they do it anyway. Do they want God to knock the cigarette out of their hand when they pick one up? People want to do what they want and then blame God when something bad happens. God is leaving people alone to do whatever they want and see that the results are not always good. God will come back and save man from himself. For now He is letting us run things and mess it up badly.

 

[Unification]

Could you present knowledge to support that humans needed the holocaust and 9/11 to develop? It seems completely illogical to make that claim

I understand this wasn't meant for my response, but if I may...

As Thanda has said, taking positives from negatives is how the race of mankind has developed and continues to develop, learn, and evolve. A fall and then rise. Failure and then success. Sacrifice and suffering is required. We couldn't experience peace and bliss if we didn't know what sacrifice and suffering were. If all were light, we wouldn't see much. Just as we couldn't experience peace and bliss if we didn't know what suffering and sacrifice were, we wouldn't see much. Loathing and living in memory of the past also doesn't push us forward. It causes blame and reaction from emotion. We live now, in present times. We created our past and we were our past. And here we are now. While it wasn't "needed," there is no changing it and it just IS and asking "why?" is a hindrance to development NOW. We don't have to blame or thank anyone, we were them and are them. We need to move on.

Yes, I would want god to step in and stop bad things from happening. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy if god help them quit smoking tbh, or he could just take the addicting qualities of nicotine away and people would stop on their own. Giving people "free will" is not enough to justify huge events like the holocaust and just small acts of evil which happen to innocents every day. The fact that he is letting us run things and screw things up is exactly what Is motivating the discussion in this thread, this really doesn't add anything to it.

We would have to know those were "innocent." Perhaps they could have been killers and took the lives of others once before. One giant merry-go-round. One or many paying every last penny.

 

[Thanda]

Well yeah, he has the power to do so, and that seems like the clear moral thing to do to me. Most of the worlds problems would be solved instantaneously and suffering would end. Thats why my position is the way it is. If god were truly omnipotent and all knowing then he would be able teach us the proper morals without having to watch as millions are gassed. I think thats a clearly more sensible option then leaving us to "learn" from experience.

Okay, well it appears your morals and mine are at odds with each other - I have never found forcing another person to do something moral.

 

[Thanda]

And that's the really interesting part. Because it seems no evidence could EVER contradict the concept, not even in principle.
If you see a human parent leaving his child to starve nearly to death with the excuse that it helps to build character, you will certainly instantly consider this an insane parent. Even if it is true that it helps to build character.
But the same, for some reason, doesn't apply to God. That's the crazy part.

Your problem is assuming that when a child is starving it is the child who must learn the lesson. Perhaps the lesson is for you and me. Why are there starving children in a world with an abundant supply of food? Why are there starving children when people in first world countries are throwing food away everyday. These aren't question for God to answer: these are questions for you and I to answer.

 

[Koldo]

Your problem is assuming that when a child is starving it is the child who must learn the lesson. Perhaps the lesson is for you and me. Why are there starving children in a world with an abundant supply of food? Why are there starving children when people in first world countries are throwing food away everyday. These aren't question for God to answer: these are questions for you and I to answer.

If a parent does that to a child to help us both build character, you would still consider him insane. Perhaps even more insane.

 

[Thanda]

If a parent does that to a child to help us both build character, you would still consider him insane. Perhaps even more insane.

You would call it insane. I would call helping people understand the consequences of their actions.

 

[MARCELLO]

Where was God?

 

[Glaurung]

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

No I don't, you only insist that I do. God permits, but never causes evil.

very single one of those answers are nothing but a cop out because you can't logically answer those questions, when you put God in control of everything followed by the notion that He is a loving God. That is my biggest problem with religions/people that make that claim.

Your refusal to accept any answers does not make any given answer a cop-out.

I will leave this here.
Job 38

Why does God allow so much evil? I can't say. But as God made clear to Job, as much as we may question he frankly doesn't owe us any answers.
Job 41:11

 

[Neo Deist]

No I don't, you only insist that I do. God permits, but never causes evil.

Really?

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Your refusal to accept any answers does not make any given answer a cop-out.

I don't refuse to accept any answers, just those cop out answers that I listed. Those are the default answers for those that can't explain and answer the question WHY...

Dig down deep and come up with something rational and I will be more than willing to listen.

 

[Koldo]

You would call it insane. I would call helping people understand the consequences of their actions.

You mean you wouldn't consider it insane ? Really ?