Where's Atma Who's not Brahma?

[Aupmanyav]

.. the consciousness among the conscious, who, though one, dispenses the desired objects to many, to them belongs eternal peace, not to others.

That is very simple, HLK, though it takes some thinking to be sorted out. It is our faulty consciousness (consciousness of the conscious) that considers one entity to be many. I see no metaphor in this. Actually the Venerable Sage could not have been more down to earth. Once we realize the oneness, the multiplicity disappears. Realizing oneness is removal of the veil of ignorance. But, then, some people do not mind the veil. They welcome it. Bhakti or karma also allows people eternal peace (we see many examples in the forum itself).

 

[Shantanu]

Just a very simple and funny question to Dvaitians or semi-dvaitians....

Where in the scripture it is written that Atma is not Brahman? I'm interested to know those verses. The meaning should be clear as like that of ' Aham Brahma asmi ' It's some kind of challenge to post such verses. After all shastra pramana is more important than beliefs. Isn't it?

Hari Ram Govinda

First you need to define what you mean by Atma in plain English: Is it something within our brains like the mind or in the mind?

 

[Shantanu]

Mandukya Upanishad, second verse, says ayam atma brahma.

Chandogya Upanishad indicates the same in the tat tvam asi refrain; see rough translation for context: 'That Being which is this subtle essence, even That all this world has for its self. That is the true. That is the Atman. That thou art, O Shvetaketu.'

The ancients were describing the religion of oneness with Nature and the universe by saying that 'you are that'. This religion is given to us by the guna consciousness god Brahma who inspired the Upanishads. On the other hand the Vedas were given to us by God Himself, Sri Krishna.

 

[Stormcry]

First you need to define what you mean by Atma in plain English: Is it something within our brains like the mind or in the mind?

Atma is Sat-Chit-Ananda. 'Reality-Consciousness-Bliss'

 

[Makaranda]

The ancients were describing the religion of oneness with Nature and the universe by saying that 'you are that'. This religion is given to us by the guna consciousness god Brahma who inspired the Upanishads. On the other hand the Vedas were given to us by God Himself, Sri Krishna.

Tat tvam asi indicates aikyam between oneself and Brahman, who is beyond this universe of names and forms.

Upanishads are Vedic texts. That is why they are called Vedanta.

 

[Shantanu]

Tat tvam asi indicates aikyam between oneself and Brahman, who is beyond this universe of names and forms.

Upanishads are Vedic texts. That is why they are called Vedanta.

What is there in the Vedas that is consistent with or a repeat of 'Tat tvam asi'?

 

[Aupmanyav]

If self and Brahman are same, then Brahman also is not beyond the world just like us. Brahman is all the universe and everything contained in it.

 

[Chakra]

If self and Brahman are same, then Brahman also is not beyond the world just like us. Brahman is all the universe and everything contained in it.

So which part of the universe is Maya?

 

[Makaranda]

What is there in the Vedas that is consistent with or a repeat of 'Tat tvam asi'?

Tat tvam asi is a vedic statement.It occurs (and is repeated as a refrain) many times in Chandogya Upanishad of the Samaveda.

 

[Shantanu]

Tat tvam asi is a vedic statement.It occurs (and is repeated as a refrain) many times in Chandogya Upanishad of the Samaveda.

Can you point to the precise words in the four Vedas for this statement, please?

 

[Makaranda]

Please refer to the mahavakya in the sixth chapter of the Chandogya Upanishad. It occurs repeatedly (maybe 12 or so times). It is hard to miss

 

[Chakra]

There are, different interpretations of Tat Tvam Asi.

 

[Shantanu]

There are, different interpretations of Tat Tvam Asi.

What are these interpretations?

 

[Shantanu]

Please refer to the mahavakya in the sixth chapter of the Chandogya Upanishad. It occurs repeatedly (maybe 12 or so times). It is hard to miss

Well you could not point to the precise words in Sama veda that means Tat Tvam Asi, but look what this reference (Samaveda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) apparently says about Sama Veda and the reference to it in the Bhagavad Gita :

''The Sama Veda, Samveda, or Samaveda (Sanskrit: सामवेदः, sāmaveda, from sāman "melody" and veda "knowledge"), is the third of the four Vedas, the ancient core Hindu scriptures, along with the Rig Veda, Yajur Veda, and Atharva Veda. It ranks next in sanctity and liturgical importance to the Rigveda. It consists of a collection (samhita) of hymns, portions of hymns, and detached verses, all but 75 taken from the Sakala Sakha of the Rigveda, the other 75 belong to the Bashkala Sakha, to be sung, using specifically indicated melodies called Samagana, by Udgatar priests at sacrifices in which the juice of the Soma plant, clarified and mixed with milk and other ingredients, is offered in libation to various deities. The Brihat sama is given special importance by the lord Krishna in the Bhagavat Gita in Chapter 10 called the "Vibhuti Yoga". Here the god Krishna tells about the great souls, valuable materials and supreme objects which have taken their perfect forms on Earth and among them the lord says he is the existing spirit of the Brihat Sama.''

 

[Makaranda]

You will have to excuse me for not providing direct quotations from the text as I am currently travelling in India and do not have the text to hand, but I can assure you that the mahavakya is to be found in the sixth chapter in the dialogue between Uddalaka Aruni and his son Shvetaketu. The words tat tvam asi appear directly as a refrain many times. Please look for yourself if you require further clarification.

 

[Shantanu]

You will have to excuse me for not providing direct quotations from the text as I am currently travelling in India and do not have the text to hand, but I can assure you that the mahavakya is to be found in the sixth chapter in the dialogue between Uddalaka Aruni and his son Shvetaketu. The words tat tvam asi appear directly as a refrain many times. Please look for yourself if you require further clarification.

I am not interested in any dialogues that may have taken place between any two individuals, nor in the mahavakyas of the Upanishads: I am only interested in the exact words (hymns and mantras) of the Vedas. If you can point to any ideas in these hymns and mantras that show the contents of the mahavakyas and subsequent development please provide them when you are in a position to do so.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

What are these interpretations?

Major Vedantic schools offer different interpretations of the phrase Tat (That) Tvam (You jiva) Asi (Are):

*Advaita - absolute equality of 'tat', the Ultimate Reality, Brahman, and 'tvam', the individual self), jiva.

*Shuddhadvaita - oneness in "essence" between 'tat' and individual self; but 'tat' is the whole and self is a part.

*Vishishtadvaita - identity of individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat', Brahman.

*Dvaitadvaita - equal non-difference and difference between the individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat'.

*Dvaita - “Sa atmaa-tat tvam asi” in Sanskrit is actually “Sa atma-atat tvam asi” or “Atman, thou art not that”.

*Acintya Bheda Abheda - inconceivable oneness and difference between individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat'.

 

[Shantanu]

Major Vedantic schools offer different interpretations of the phrase Tat (That) Tvam (You jiva) Asi (Are):

*Advaita - absolute equality of 'tat', the Ultimate Reality, Brahman, and 'tvam', the individual self), jiva.

*Shuddhadvaita - oneness in "essence" between 'tat' and individual self; but 'tat' is the whole and self is a part.

*Vishishtadvaita - identity of individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat', Brahman.

*Dvaitadvaita - equal non-difference and difference between the individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat'.

*Dvaita - “Sa atmaa-tat tvam asi” in Sanskrit is actually “Sa atma-atat tvam asi” or “Atman, thou art not that”.

*Acintya Bheda Abheda - inconceivable oneness and difference between individual self as a part of the whole which is 'tat'.

Which one of these interpretations describes the oneness and separateness between jiva and God as a Personal God who guides the individual through thoughts planted in the mind such that actions resulting from the thoughts satisfies both the jiva and God, and yet the jiva cannot ever be sure if a particular thought is the jiva's thought or God's thought?

 

[Acintya_Ash]

Which one of these interpretations describes the oneness and separateness between jiva and God as a Personal God who guides the individual through thoughts planted in the mind such that actions resulting from the thoughts satisfies both the jiva and God, and yet the jiva cannot ever be sure if a particular thought is the jiva's thought or God's thought?

Vishishtadvaita, Dvaitadvaita and Acintya Bheda Abheda.

 

[Makaranda]

I am not interested in any dialogues that may have taken place between any two individuals, nor in the mahavakyas of the Upanishads: I am only interested in the exact words (hymns and mantras) of the Vedas. If you can point to any ideas in these hymns and mantras that show the contents of the mahavakyas and subsequent development please provide them when you are in a position to do so.

Mahavakyas are Vedic mantras, Upanishads are Vedic texts. They are Shruti. Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7 onwards contains the statement (and explanation of the statement) tat tvam asi in mantra form.