Where's the Separation of Religion and State?

[Sanzbir]

The reality is that Christmas trees on government property have nothing to do with accommodating Christians and everything to do with slapping Christian branding on institutions that represent Christians and non-Christians alike.

How is it "Christian branding" when I have a tree??

How is it "Christian branding" when Japanese atheists have trees??

It's just a seasonal and cultural decoration that transcends religion at this point in time. It was once associated with pagan beliefs, and then it was no longer.

It was once associated with Christian beliefs, but there are plenty of us who now decorate trees as a representation of culture who are ourselves outside of the Christian religion.

Christmas trees are awesome and don't have to be religious. You dang humbuggers are all just trying to kill the Christmas spirit and seasonal aesthetic pretending that this is somehow about religious endorsement when plenty of us non-Christians of many varieties decorate trees for the season.

Nativities are clearly religious and if you want to keep them off of public land be my guest, but leave the dang trees alone!! Unless you're using specifically Christian or pagan ornaments, there isn't anything inherently religious about a tree covered in lights and baubles.

 

[Willamena]

Wonder how many people would just stand by and say nothing if it was, Christians, Mormon's, Catholics, JWs, Seventh Day Adventist. That wanted the rule/law changed in Congress because of their Religious belief's ????

If it was the same rule being proposed, a rule about diversity, then we would give it the same support.

 

[Willamena]

If you knew and understood what it means for women to cover their heads, Which you just showed that you haven't a clue or idea, why Jewish/Christian women are to cover their heads.

So you actually believe that it's an actual headscarf that is to be covered over their heads.

Whether it's a Jewish Christian woman or a Christian woman, the covering of the head, Represents who?
that is to be over the heads of the
Jewish Christian woman snd the Christian woman.

Who does the covering of the head Represents?

The veil is traditionally a barrier separating the world outside from the holiness within. It protects the world from the power of the being who wears it.

 

[Ellen Brown]

If you knew and understood what it means for women to cover their heads, Which you just showed that you haven't a clue or idea, why Jewish/Christian women are to cover their heads.

So you actually believe that it's an actual headscarf that is to be covered over their heads.

Whether it's a Jewish Christian woman or a Christian woman, the covering of the head, Represents who?
that is to be over the heads of the
Jewish Christian woman snd the Christian woman.

Who does the covering of the head Represents?

Well, that was fairly snotty and unkind. Proud of yourself for having told someone off good and proper?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This rule/law in Congress has been in effect since 1837 and no one's complained about it

Not true.

Furthermore, being an old rule doesn't really mean much. At exactly what point in that almost 200 year span did anyone apart from a Christian have a chance to be elected?

Times change.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

At lease Trump has kept every promise that he has made.

.

Complete and utter crap.

 

[Revoltingest]

Complete and utter crap.
There are a few exceptions ya clueless blurney ponker!

I fixed your post (& mine) to make it friendlier.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How is it "Christian branding" when I have a tree??

How is it "Christian branding" when Japanese atheists have trees??

It's just a seasonal and cultural decoration that transcends religion at this point in time. It was once associated with pagan beliefs, and then it was no longer.

It was once associated with Christian beliefs, but there are plenty of us who now decorate trees as a representation of culture who are ourselves outside of the Christian religion.

Christmas trees are awesome and don't have to be religious. You dang humbuggers are all just trying to kill the Christmas spirit and seasonal aesthetic pretending that this is somehow about religious endorsement when plenty of us non-Christians of many varieties decorate trees for the season.

Nativities are clearly religious and if you want to keep them off of public land be my guest, but leave the dang trees alone!! Unless you're using specifically Christian or pagan ornaments, there isn't anything inherently religious about a tree covered in lights and baubles.

I have no problem personally co-opting the trappings of Christmas and stripping the Christianity out of them just as Christians co-opted the trappings of Yule and stripped the Paganism out of them, but I can remember the controversy when the City of Toronto tried calling their tree a "holiday tree" to know that there's a major link between anti-secularism and putting the tree up in public places. When Christians fight for Christmas trees at town hall, it isn't because they just want an inclusive, secular festive winter display; they're trying to slap their religion on a public institution (edit: BTW: they're also not pleased with you calling a symbol they consider "theirs" to be no longer associated with the Christian religion).

That being said, I do agree that Nativity scenes and Ten Commandments monuments are more blatant church-state violations.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I fixed your post (& mine) to make it friendlier.

You're welcome to make your own post, but I wasn't trying to be friendly. As opposed to some in this thread (and I don't mean you), I was trying to be accurate.

Self-delusion and lies annoy me.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're welcome to make your own post, but I wasn't trying to be friendly. As opposed to some in this thread (and I don't mean you), I was trying to be accurate.

Self-delusion and lies annoy me.

I sympathize.
But also with folk who have rather magical beliefs.

 

[Sanzbir]

I have no problem personally co-opting the trappings of Christmas and stripping the Christianity out of them just as Christians co-opted the trappings of Yule and stripped the Paganism out of them, but I can remember the controversy when the City of Toronto tried calling their tree a "holiday tree" to know that there's a major link between anti-secularism and putting the tree up in public places.

Man, that's 'cause it's a Christmas tree. That's just what it's called. I as a non-Christian don't care if the name has religious origins just as I'll still use the term "Yuletide" even though that has religious origins within paganism as well.

"Holiday tree" is a stupid frickin' name. And how the heck does it even work to secularize the name given that you're calling it a "holy day tree"?? It's just a dumb idea all around.

Just screw it, it's a Christmas tree. You don't need to pander to me as a non-Christian by calling a Christmas tree something else. The name is what it is, I don't think it's a good idea to scrub the name "Christ" from "Christmas tree" as that'd be just as idiotic as insisting we need to remove the name "Thor" from "Thursday" to appeal to all the non-Germanic pagans in the nation.

What, do ya think a non-Christian is like a demon and will recoil at having to hear the word "Christ" or somethin'??

When Christians fight for Christmas trees at town hall, it isn't because they just want an inclusive, secular festive winter display; they're trying to slap their religion on a public institution

Well when I fight for Christmas trees it's merely because I like the aesthetic. It's a facet of our culture that transcends religion. Every atheist and agnostic I know celebrates Christmas. Many of the famous classic Christmas songs were written by Jews. Must we scrub all of our culture of anything that has it's origins in religion?? Shall we end the notion of the weekend off of work itself due to its Sabbatical origins??

As for the motives of the decorators, let them think whatever they want behind their motive to give me the decoration I want. I don't really care about the motives of idiots decorating things. No matter how hard they believe, they won't convert my kids to their religion by putting lights on trees. So no matter what may they think they are accomplishing, all they are really doing is making things look nice and festive.

(edit: BTW: they're also not pleased with you calling a symbol they consider "theirs" to be no longer associated with the Christian religion).

AY YO any Christians here actually care that I as a Baha'i love Christmas decorations and Christmas trees and delicious piparkukas and other Christmas trappings?? Anyone offended by my Christmas Spirit??

 

[wandering peacefully]

I agree that a reasonable person would not see the allowing of an individual to wear a hijab would not amount to the government endorsing Islam. That said, I understand the argument that the OP is trying to make. The idea that a longstanding rule is changed seemingly for a Muslim when no action was taken for other faiths. The air it puts on is that of favoritism. Though one would be hard pressed to suggest that such favoritism exists for Muslims in the U.S.

The only reason I suggest the endorsement test is because of what the OP is trying to compare.

I often find myself at odds with some individuals who try to prop up the separation of church ans state to anything that is Christian. I can only assume that is why the OP has attempted to call out Athiests over the issue.

In other words, the poster is not so much worried about the actual rule change but by the fact that atheists (on here at least) are not bothered by it.

I think you went further to try to explain the process of thought which is more important than the wearing of hats.

I honestly can't see how this issue is elevated at all beyond the personal preference for wearing personal religious symbols. The only comparison that makes any sense is a Christian wearing a cross on the house floor to wearing a headscarf on the floor. The constitution hat issue is just plain stupid and has nothing to do with showing religious preference. A headscarf is to a Muslim as a cross necklaces is to a Christian. Ban them both on the floor? Or find something more important to focus on. Those should be the only choices.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I sympathize.
But also with folk who have rather magical beliefs.

I have no problems with beliefs different to mine, and rarely get agitated.
But I think it behooves us to call out blatant factual misrepresentations, if only for those reading on.

And I hope my generally equitable responses means the emphasis is more obvious when I do get more snippy.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I honestly can't see how this issue is elevated at all beyond the personal preference for wearing personal religious symbols. The only comparison that makes any sense is a Christian wearing a cross on the house floor to wearing a headscarf on the floor. The constitution hat issue is just plain stupid and has nothing to do with showing religious preference. A headscarf is to a Muslim as a cross necklaces is to a Christian. Ban them both on the floor? Or find something more important to focus on. Those should be the only choices.

Very true. Why are Christians allowed to wear crosses? That is a very religious symbol. Why not ban them and Jewish stars of David, etc.? The reason is that by allowing them the government is not pronoting any one religion. And that is the true purpose of separation of church and state. No one is required to accept an official government religion. Just allowing religious symbols does not promote one religion over another. Just like seeing a Christmas tree does not force anyone to accept any religious belief.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Not true.

Furthermore, being an old rule doesn't really mean much. At exactly what point in that almost 200 year span did anyone apart from a Christian have a chance to be elected?

Times change.

Well there were Democrats who were elected in that 200 year span that were not Christians, that even to day Democrats are not Christians, but still get elected.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well, that was fairly snotty and unkind. Proud of yourself for having told someone off good and proper?

Well first a person should find out about something, before making any statement about something first.

It wasn't snotty or unkind nor was it intended to be snotty or unkind.
to correct a person in their error.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well there were Democrats who were elected in that 200 year span that were not Christians, that even to day Democrats are not Christians, but still get elected.

Granted. Deists, you mean?

 

[Faithofchristian]

The veil is traditionally a barrier separating the world outside from the holiness within. It protects the world from the power of the being who wears it.

Now, can you give where in the bible in what book and chapter and verses where that is written at.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Man, that's 'cause it's a Christmas tree. That's just what it's called. I as a non-Christian don't care if the name has religious origins just as I'll still use the term "Yuletide" even though that has religious origins within paganism as well.

"Holiday tree" is a stupid frickin' name. And how the heck does it even work to secularize the name given that you're calling it a "holy day tree"?? It's just a dumb idea all around.

Just screw it, it's a Christmas tree. You don't need to pander to me as a non-Christian by calling a Christmas tree something else. The name is what it is, I don't think it's a good idea to scrub the name "Christ" from "Christmas tree" as that'd be just as idiotic as insisting we need to remove the name "Thor" from "Thursday" to appeal to all the non-Germanic pagans in the nation.

What, do ya think a non-Christian is like a demon and will recoil at having to hear the word "Christ" or somethin'??



Well when I fight for Christmas trees it's merely because I like the aesthetic. It's a facet of our culture that transcends religion. Every atheist and agnostic I know celebrates Christmas. Many of the famous classic Christmas songs were written by Jews. Must we scrub all of our culture of anything that has it's origins in religion?? Shall we end the notion of the weekend off of work itself due to its Sabbatical origins??

As for the motives of the decorators, let them think whatever they want behind their motive to give me the decoration I want. I don't really care about the motives of idiots decorating things. No matter how hard they believe, they won't convert my kids to their religion by putting lights on trees. So no matter what may they think they are accomplishing, all they are really doing is making things look nice and festive.



AY YO any Christians here actually care that I as a Baha'i love Christmas decorations and Christmas trees and delicious piparkukas and other Christmas trappings?? Anyone offended by my Christmas Spirit??

Not me. But I am a sucker for Christmas.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Granted. Deists, you mean?

Nope not at all, I said Democrats are not Christian were elected.