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Which of these two things do you think is more important to Donald Trump.

Which does Trump care more about?


  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
It's not Mueller's job to exonerate anyone. Heard of guilty or not guilty? Yawn. Mueller made no recommendation to charges. Yawn, again
This is just a moronic Republican talking point. Criminal investigations exonerate people all the time. Don’t confuse an investigation with a trial.

If Mueller could have exonerated Trump he would have. That was his job, to investigate and report on what he found.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
This is just a moronic Republican talking point. Criminal investigations exonerate people all the time. Don’t confuse an investigation with a trial.

That isn't a purpose of an investigation. Not being exonerated does not mean Trump is guilty. Rosenstein and Barr found no obstruction nor collusion. Rosenstein appointed Mueller. Try again.

Try babbling about conflating when you are up to date on word and the report.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
That isn't a purpose of an investigation. Not being exonerated does not mean Trump is guilty. Rosenstein and Barr found no obstruction nor collusion. Rosenstein appointed Mueller. Try again.
The purpose of an investigation is to find the truth. There is nothing stopping an investor from stating that the evidence clears somebody. If a homicide detective finds clear evidence they suspect was out of the country at the time of the murder and could not have committed the crime that is what his report will say. A trial can only say guilty or not guilty. But an investigator can declare innocence if the evidence leads to that conclusion.

Mueller could have done that if the evidence lead to that conclusion. Mueller clearly stated that the evidence would not allow him to say that.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The purpose of an investigation is to find the truth. There is nothing stopping an investor from stating that the evidence clears somebody. If a homicide detective finds clear evidence they suspect was out of the country at the time of the murder and could not have committed the crime that is what his report will say. A trial can only say guilty or not guilty. But an investigator can declare innocence if the evidence leads to that conclusion.

Your example fails as it is not applicable to Trump nor the office. The report had no charges to forward nor evidence of either claim. Try again

Mueller could have done that if the evidence lead to that conclusion. Mueller clearly stated that the evidence would not allow him to say that.

The evidence didn't led to any charges ergo your point is moot. That is being exonerated.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Your example fails as it is not applicable to Trump nor the office. The report had no charges to forward nor evidence of either claim. Try again



The evidence didn't led to any charges ergo your point is moot. That is being exonerated.
Representative Ted Lieu has a very apt analogy.

It is as if Mueller said here is a slice of bread, on top of that is a slice of ham, and on top of that is another slice of bread. And OLG guidelines prevent me from saying whether it is or is not a ham sandwich.

It is actually worse than that. Mueller went out of his way to give the definition of a ham sandwich (a slice of ham between two slices of bread) and then gives multiple examples of ham between bread.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Representative Ted Lieu has a very apt analogy.

It is as if Mueller said here is a slice of bread, on top of that is a slice of ham, and on top of that is another slice of bread. And OLG guidelines prevent me from whether it is or is not a ham sandwich.

Nope as per Rosenstein. There was nothing to charge Trump with.

It is actually worse than that. Mueller went out of his way to give the definition of a ham sandwich (a slice of ham between two slices of bread) and then gives multiple examples of ham between bread.

All backed by zero evidence. Try again.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I have. .
No you haven’t. No one who has read the Mueller report will believe that you have read it. It contains over 400 pages of evidence. It clearly lays out the elements of obstruction and how Trump’s actions meet those elements.

You keep saying there is zero evidence and referencing Rosenstein. It could not be more clear that you have not read the report.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
No you haven’t. No one who has read the Mueller report will believe that you have read it. It contains over 400 pages of evidence. It clearly lays out the elements of obstruction and how Trump’s actions meet those elements.

Cite something then. Your objection is moot as you do not cite a single thing as a refutation. You are hand waving.

You keep saying there is zero evidence and referencing Rosenstein. It could not me more clear that you have not read the report.

Cite one piece of evidence. Go for it. I just rejected a claim you made. Now back up your claim.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
IMO, the only reason that impeachment proceedings haven't started is that Nancy Pelosi has blocked all attempts so far out of some ill-conceived strategy, not because there's a lack of evidence.

Heck - Trump has been doing impeachable things out in the open ever since his inauguration. He never bothered to remove himself from business relationships that violate the emoluments clause.

Since then, though, the many times he committed obstruction of justice are now well-documented and impeachable as well. It's also become clear that he would have been guilty of even more serious crimes if it weren't for his staff's failure to follow illegal orders on several occasions.

I'm not sure what Pelosi's strategy actually is here. The obvious answer seems to be that they simply don't have enough votes in the Senate to carry it through. Other than that, it seems that they're just going to wait until the election and let the voters decide whether to keep Trump or dump him. Impeachment proceedings would be counterproductive at this point.

In Nixon's case, they found the "smoking gun" which was enough for a conviction, so that even his own party was turning against him. They just couldn't protect him anymore, even if they wanted to. Plus, the Democrats had a majority in both houses of Congress at the time. Even Goldwater had to go in and see Nixon to convince him to face reality.

I think the abuses at the border will mobilize more Democrats to the polls, so I expect that Trump will do worse than he did in 2016, when he did lose the popular vote.

A lot of depends on the Democrats themselves. I sense a certain level of "obsession" over Trump and wanting to defeat Trump - something so strong that it may be clouding their judgment and objectivity. They're squabbling with each other, too.

It somewhat reminds me of Al Pacino's ending monologue in the film And Justice For All:

That man there wants a win so badly today, it means so much to him, he is so carried away with the prospect of winning, the idea, that he forgot something absolutely essential to today’s proceeding. He forgot his case. He forgot to bring it. I don’t know, I don’t see it, do you? The prosecution’s case. He’s got to have one.


Of course, the scenario here is that Pacino's character hates the judge more than the prosecutor does. He wants to see the judge go down, but he was being coerced to defend the judge when he didn't want to. He was probably also mad at the prosecutor for bringing such a weak case that made his job almost too easy.

I would hope that members of the military would care about things like duty, honour, and protecting the Constitution... but I would have also hoped that border agents would care about human rights laws and basic decency.

Concepts like "duty" and "honor" are somewhat subjective and open to interpretation, just as the Constitution is also subject to interpretation. If you get the right lawyers and the right judges in key positions, just about anything is possible. We already have a strong underlying militaristic, ultra-patriotic bent, so there are large segments of the population geared in that direction already.

As for the Border Patrol, they've always had a somewhat spotty reputation. Recently, there have been articles in which their private facebook pages have been outed and some disturbing comments revealed. There's something about the overall culture of the Border Patrol, which was brought up recently in a trial for a Border Patrol agent accused of running over a Guatemalan man.

That, and various patterns of misconduct discernible in police departments across the country, as well as criminal acts by military personnel. And then there's all the things we know and don't know about our intelligence agencies. These are not nice people we're talking about here.
 

Shad

Veteran Member

POTUS can fire the AG for any reason. Replacing a recused AG is nothing special. The AG works for POTUS.

Comney was fired is within POTUS power too. Being fired does not end the investigation. Rosenstein and an fbi report both proved Trump had grounds to fire Comney.

Claiming a conflict of interest is not obstruction.

Criticism is not obstruction.

Editing is not obstruction as it was press release. Toss in Fusion worked for Clinton.

Removing Mueller is within the power of POTUS and does not stop an investigation. It isn't obstruction.

Asking for Flynn for information is not obstruction.

Cohen's claims resulted in a dead end. There was no obstruction involved.

Try again.

Your source proves nothing as it does not know what obstruction of justice is.

18 U.S. Code Chapter 73 - OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm not sure what Pelosi's strategy actually is here. The obvious answer seems to be that they simply don't have enough votes in the Senate to carry it through.
Right: that's been her stated justification: that impeachment is a waste of time as long as a Republican-controlled Senate would refuse to convict.

I also think, though, that a factor in her decision is that she sees Trump as a tool for Democratic success at the polls. If she did the ethical thing and got Trump out of office, then all the years of anger at Trump for his abuses and corruption that she's counting on to motivate Democrats to the polls might not translate to a different Republican candidate.
 
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