Which religion has love?

[#H.E.B.Knowledge]

My mother got shunned, she wasn't baptised just studying, for having a bast***d child (me) with my dad, I'm not sure if he was baptised but his parents were. Then my dads dad basically shunned me for being born.

Is that a way that God want us to treat other people especially family? I highly doubt it. But yet every religion wants to claim that they know what Love is. Again, conditional love isn't real love. People want to Love on their own terms but love isn't something that can be conditioned. Sorry to hear that about your family.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Jesus the son of the true God taught--- satan is the ruler of this world--- you have misinterpreted.

In your opinion, perhaps.

Not in ours.

 

[kjw47]

In your opinion, perhaps.

Not in ours.

Either one believes the son of God or they do not believe him-- I guess you chose your path. Gods word even teaches that satan is god of this system of things( on the earth)
Satan has easily mislead 99% all throughout mankinds history.

 

[Windwalker]

Either one believes the son of God or they do not believe him

I believe, but that belief doesn't look like yours. Which one of us is not believing, if it's a black and white issue? Is it you, or me? Wait don't tell me, you're right, and everyone else is deceived. Nothing to question about that presumption.

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes I know who my father is, I don't speak to him anymore, and yes I tried to have a relationship with him for many years but he seemed to always put himself and women before me so it never worked out and now we don't speak. If I saw him on the street would I cross the other side of the road like JWs do, no I wouldn't.

I don't cross to the other side of the road unless I know there will be a mouthful of abuse on the way past. It sometimes save oneself and others a lot of unpleasantness. When people are disciplined, it has one of two outcomes....they either humble themselves and seek to restore their relationship with God as part of his 'nation', or they get angry and seek a 'divorce' and want to bad mouth the ones who made them feel bad about their aberrant behavior.

My mum fought against access once when I was 4 because I didn't want to see my father and he had a violent streak so she thought I would be better off if I didn't see him. I didn't want to see him cause I was afraid of him, he broke into our flat once when he was drunk.

I completely understand why she would do that. Alcoholics can be extremely dangerous people. Your father was obviously never a JW. If his own parents set a bad example, then this perhaps contributed to his problem, especially if he had a rebellious nature to begin with. I take it that the underlying issues go back aways, when people were the product of harsh economic times and hardened themselves up to cope with their situations. This produced a generation of individuals who had very rigid parenting and carried this over into their own parenting. Role models have a great impact on how we conduct ourselves as parents. It takes a strong person to override such ingrained attitudes. JW's are not immune to this, but there has been a really strong swing in recent decades to eradicate such rigidity and unkindness, especially in elders.

These days, elders practically need a degree in psychology to handle the magnitude of the problems presented to them. Depression and other forms of mental illness, so prevalent these days, can be an enormous challenge for those only trained to be spiritual counsellors. They do the best they can and encourage those who are ill to seek professional help.

My grandfather said to my mum's mum who is not a JWs btw, when she approached him to talk about how they should help my parents if they want to get married he told her my mum has given herself to the devil and he doesn't want anything to do with her or the child she was having. And I was the only grandchild he left out of his will when he died as well so he stuck to word through and through. He was an elder btw.

I see that your grandfather may have been a very judgmental and unbalanced individual, but I also have to ask, what upbringing produced those traits in him?

We are all victims of our upbringing, even when we don't realise it.

My grandad was a very hard man, saw the world in black and white and so his love was extremely conditional, his wife even committed adultery so they could get a divorce. She never really tried to get close to me either, though I'm kind of glad she is a idiot. When I asked to come to her wedding (note that I had to ask was not invited) she said to my dad"why does she want to come for!?"
So constant rejection from my dads side of the family.

Any wife who has to commit adultery to get out of a marriage is to be pitied.
But when one makes a vow to Jehovah, such as in marriage, we pledge to stick with this person for life; "for better or for worse". If one's marriage mate makes life unbearable, it is Jehovah who will "make the way out" if he deems it necessary. (1 Cor 10:13) Adversity often builds the quality of endurance, which will be vital in getting through the great tribulation. (Matt 24:13, 21)
If we take it upon ourselves to get out of a marriage by purposely breaking God's law, we will answer for that. God is not a fool, he knows the motivation of the heart. His law has no loopholes. Only physical violence or willful non support can give a person grounds for separation, but not divorce. There are only two grounds to end a marriage...adultery (not your own) or death.

Also my mum was shunned and my dad wasn't!! Ha!! What ever happened to it takes two to tango? there was an elder and his wife who were basically the only ones that were nice to her and still supported her, so 2 out of 60 or whatever ain't bad.

This I find rather strange. This is not what would take place ordinarily with one who is not baptised. If there was no dedication, there is no disfellowshipping, so a person will not be shunned unless they were hostile and abusive towards those in the congregation. Avoidance would only be for those reasons.

If your father was not baptized, he would not have been shunned either. If he was an alcoholic and a womanizer, then perhaps he had no interest in becoming a JW anyway....if he had a bad example in his parents, that would be understandable. This unfortunately happens on an individual basis, but it is not typical of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, nor is that kind of treatment encouraged.

Thank you for sharing your story, I can see why it is painful for you, but please don't judge the whole brotherhood by the few bad examples among us. Israel too had some very bad examples where parents produced offspring who turned out like themselves, but there are also those who rose above a bad parental example and shone as good examples.

I wish you peace in your family H. It sounds like you need some closure with this story. There is a lot of pain in your words but also I see decency in you and a desire to do the right thing.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I completely understand why she would do that. Alcoholics can be extremely dangerous people. Your father was obviously never a JW. If his own parents set a bad example, then this perhaps contributed to his problem, especially if he had a rebellious nature to begin with. I take it that the underlying issues go back aways, when people were the product of harsh economic times and hardened themselves up to cope with their situations. This produced a generation of individuals who had very rigid parenting and carried this over into their own parenting. Role models have a great impact on how we conduct ourselves as parents. It takes a strong person to override such ingrained attitudes. JW's are not immune to this, but there has been a really strong swing in recent decades to eradicate such rigidity and unkindness, especially in elders.

I don't think he would be classified as an alcoholic, does he drink too much though? Yes.
Does he know how to look after a child? No not at all.
I have heard from other people that he hand bad parenting. He is not very intelligent either so he's brothers or his friends can tell him how he should feel and what he should do and he would do it.
Has he ever stuck up for me when it came it to his family, no.

I see that your grandfather may have been a very judgmental and unbalanced individual, but I also have to ask, what upbringing produced those traits in him?

We are all victims of our upbringing, even when we don't realise it.

It may have been the generation he was brought up. Some people judge everyone else by how they were brought up.

Any wife who has to commit adultery to get out of a marriage is to be pitied.
But when one makes a vow to Jehovah, such as in marriage, we pledge to stick with this person for life; "for better or for worse". If one's marriage mate makes life unbearable, it is Jehovah who will "make the way out" if he deems it necessary. (1 Cor 10:13) Adversity often builds the quality of endurance, which will be vital in getting through the great tribulation. (Matt 24:13, 21)
If we take it upon ourselves to get out of a marriage by purposely breaking God's law, we will answer for that. God is not a fool, he knows the motivation of the heart. His law has no loopholes. Only physical violence or willful non support can give a person grounds for separation, but not divorce. There are only two grounds to end a marriage...adultery (not your own) or death.

All I know is she is a hypocrite to not like my mum but slept with someone else and sinned against her God and her husband and her body.

This I find rather strange. This is not what would take place ordinarily with one who is not baptised. If there was no dedication, there is no disfellowshipping, so a person will not be shunned unless they were hostile and abusive towards those in the congregation. Avoidance would only be for those reasons.

I don't think it was anything official, like they were told to shun her, and it was more like they knew my dads partners and because she was on the outside they may of felt she came in and corrupted my dad.
So people from the congregation used to cross the road when they saw my mum coming, and plus we don't know what my dads mum was saying about her.

Thank you for sharing your story, I can see why it is painful for you, but please don't judge the whole brotherhood by the few bad examples among us. Israel too had some very bad examples where parents produced offspring who turned out like themselves, but there are also those who rose above a bad parental example and shone as good examples.

I think there are plenty of kind JWs. The lifestyle is just not for me.

I wish you peace in your family H. It sounds like you need some closure with this story. There is a lot of pain in your words but also I see decency in you and a desire to do the right thing.

I wish I had my dad yeah, but I appreciate the family I do have, some people dont have any family. I'm not angry at my dad anymore.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Either one believes the son of God or they do not believe him-- I guess you chose your path.

For the record, EVERY Baha'i worldwide accepts and reveres both Christ and the Bible (little as YOU seem to realize or appreciate this)!

None of which changes the fact that as I pointed out, God has no competitor, and satan refers to our own lower (animal) nature.

BTW, Son of God is a title--an honorific, if you like--besides which Jesus proclaimed many to be sons of God!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Astravalon]

Coming into a dedicated relationship with Jehovah involves vows

But when one makes a vow to Jehovah,

I do recall Jesus specifically stating that one should make no vows whatsoever (Matthew 5:34-37). Not that churches don't have their own elaborate rationalizations for disregarding that little tidbit.

-

 

[savagewind]

I do recall Jesus specifically stating that one should make no vows whatsoever (Matthew 5:34-37). Not that churches don't have their own elaborate rationalizations for disregarding that little tidbit.

-

An excellent point. It is just one reason I feel like I did NOT break a vow when I turned my back on that religion.

 

[Astravalon]

An excellent point. It is just one reason I feel like I did NOT break a vow when I turned my back on that religion.

Yes, I think that if Jesus' words on the vow-issue reflect God's own sentiments on the matter, then God already knows that vows/oaths are meaningless when coming from us fallible humans, the latter which can only guesstimate as to what the next five minutes will hold let alone the next 50+ years. So I doubt that God is angry at us when our vows fall flat.

That verse was actually helpful to me when my former husband asked for a separation and subsequent divorce. While it was hard (though he and I are still friends and hang out together with the kids), I was able to go through it with more of a sense of repentance than one of rebellion.

Not that I really needed a bible to know that humans cannot, with 100% accuracy, predict how the future will go down, which is what vows essentially entail.

-

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Yes, I think that if Jesus' words on the vow-issue reflect God's own sentiments on the matter, then God already knows that vows/oaths are meaningless when coming from us fallible humans, the latter which can only guesstimate as to what the next five minutes will hold let alone the next 50+ years. So I doubt that God is angry at us when our vows fall flat.

That verse was actually helpful to me when my former husband asked for a separation and subsequent divorce. While it was hard (though he and I are still friends and hang out together with the kids), I was able to go through it with more of a sense of repentance than one of rebellion.

Not that I really needed a bible to know that humans cannot, with 100% accuracy, predict how the future will go down, which is what vows essentially entail.

-

This is why it baffles me that some Christians orgs think it is acceptable for a child to be baptised at 11,12,13 years old! How can they think that is an informed decision? I doubt a child of that age really understands what they are agreeing to. And then they have to face being shunned later on when they realise they made a wrong decision and face consequences for an agreement they made as a child. I think that is very wrong and Jesus would not approve. He got baptised when he was 30 years old.

 

[#H.E.B.Knowledge]

I think that vows are meaningless since it creates conditions. If the Supreme Being, or God, is limitless, then why would He/She make you vow to something He/She already know that most people can't/won't keep?

 

[kjw47]

I believe, but that belief doesn't look like yours. Which one of us is not believing, if it's a black and white issue? Is it you, or me? Wait don't tell me, you're right, and everyone else is deceived. Nothing to question about that presumption.

The only way one can truly know is by--learning all of Jesus' truths, applying Jesus' truths-- That's what I did. It clearly showed who the teachers he is with are. Like this ultra important truth from Jesus.

Therefore, keep on seeking first the kingdom and his( Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added.( sustenance, covering, spirituality)

Jesus' teachers make sure this is deep into ones heart, so they can live by doing these two things first daily.

 

[savagewind]

Many people have come to realize it is not God's will or God's righteousness that the group puts first. It is the group's interests that come first. When I found that out for certain, I left. It is not a good thing to be serving two masters. Either Jesus is master or he handed it over to the governing body as they teach it. Even if Jesus did hand over teaching authority to the governing body, I choose to obey the first law which is Proverbs 3:1-7.

 

[Astravalon]

Many people have come to realize it is not God's will or God's righteousness that the group puts first. It is the group's interests that come first. When I found that out for certain, I left. It is not a good thing to be serving two masters. Either Jesus is master or he handed it over to the governing body as they teach it. Even if Jesus did hand over teaching authority to the governing body, I choose to obey the first law which is Proverbs 3:1-7.

This sounds so much like the church I grew up in -- Roman Catholicism. They teach that Jesus handed the church to them, through Peter.

Even though I'm no longer a member, a Catholic relative still sends me a subscription to one of their magazines, and the authoritarian, "God Chose Us, So Do As We Say"-tone in some of the articles just grates on my nerves.

-

 

[savagewind]

This sounds so much like the church I grew up in -- Roman Catholicism. They teach that Jesus handed the church to them, through Peter.

Even though I'm no longer a member, a Catholic relative still sends me a subscription to one of their magazines, and the authoritarian, "God Chose Us, So Do As We Say"-tone in some of the articles just grates on my nerves.

-

Catholics, I believe, teach that if you don't do things the Catholic way you won't go to heaven. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that if you won't do things the Jehovah's Witness way you shall be killed at Armageddon and you won't go into the promised land paradise.

 

[Astravalon]

This is why it baffles me that some Christians orgs think it is acceptable for a child to be baptised at 11,12,13 years old! How can they think that is an informed decision? I doubt a child of that age really understands what they are agreeing to. And then they have to face being shunned later on when they realise they made a wrong decision and face consequences for an agreement they made as a child. I think that is very wrong and Jesus would not approve. He got baptised when he was 30 years old.

Very good point! Doing baptism the way Jesus did it (WWJD, after all ), would mean waiting until one was 30.

I think that vows are meaningless since it creates conditions. If the Supreme Being, or God, is limitless, then why would He/She make you vow to something He/She already know that most people can't/won't keep?

Exactly. The only way that would really work is if God were somehow less than God. Sometimes I think much of religious ritual/doctrine is based on a (maybe even subconscious) assumption that God is not all-knowing or all-powerful; that's the only way such doctrines and rituals could make sense, imo.

Catholics, I believe, teach that if you don't do things the Catholic way you won't go to heaven. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that if you won't do things the Jehovah's Witness way you shall be killed at Armageddon and you won't go into the promised land paradise.

Yep; the whole my-way-or-the-highway maneuver. It's got man's desire for control of the masses (pardon the pun) written all over it.

-

 

[idea]

Mormons don't condemn anyone to hell, instead we do temple work for people who have died so that everyone can have the same opportunities and blessings.

 

[JayJayDee]

I do recall Jesus specifically stating that one should make no vows whatsoever (Matthew 5:34-37). Not that churches don't have their own elaborate rationalizations for disregarding that little tidbit.

Let's examine that passage since you brought it up from verse 34-37.

"“Again you heard that it was said to those of ancient times: ‘You must not swear without performing, but you must pay your vows to Jehovah.’ 34 However, I say to you: Do not swear at all, neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Do not swear by your head, since you cannot turn one hair white or black. 37 Just let your word ‘Yes’ mean yes, your ‘No,’ no, for what goes beyond these is from the wicked one."

Taking these verses out of context is like anything else you might want to use to prove a point. Verse 34 has Jesus stating what the Pharisees knew regarding the making of vows or oaths.

"Instances in which oaths were required of certain persons under the Mosaic Law were: of a wife in the trial of jealousy (Num 5:21, 22), of a bailee when property left in his care was missing (Ex 22:10, 11), of the older men of a city in the case of an unsolved murder (Deut 21:1-9). Voluntary oaths of abstinence were allowed. (Num 30:3, 4, 10, 11) Servants of God were sometimes adjured by one in authority, and they told the truth. Likewise a Christian under oath would not lie but would tell the whole truth called for, or he may refuse to answer if it jeopardizes the righteous interests of God or of fellow Christians, in which case he must be ready to suffer any consequences that might result from his refusal to testify.—1Kings 22:15-18; Matt 26:63, 64; 27:11-14.

Vows were regarded in Israel as having the strength of an oath, as sacred and to be fulfilled even though they resulted in loss to the vower. God was viewed as watching to see that vows were carried out, and as bringing punishment for failure. (Num 30:2; Deut 23:21-23; Judg 11:30, 31, 35, 36, 39; Eccl 5:4-6) The vows of wives and unmarried daughters were subject to affirmation or cancellation by the husband or father, but widows and divorced women were bound by their vows.—Num 30:3-15.

Jesus Christ, in his Sermon on the Mount, corrected the Jews in their practice of light, loose, and indiscriminate making of oaths. It had become common among them to swear by heaven, by the earth, by Jerusalem, and even by their own heads. But since heaven was “God’s throne,” earth his “footstool,” Jerusalem his kingly city, and one’s head (or life) was dependent on God, making such oaths was the same as taking oaths in the name of God. It was not to be treated lightly. So Jesus said: “Just let your word Yes mean Yes, your No, No; for what is in excess of these is from the wicked one.”—Matt 5:33-37." (Insight Volumes WTBTS)

The verses you cited have nothing to do with the making of a vow or oath per se, but doing so loosely and with no intention of really keeping it.

When Jesus said "do not swear at all" he was saying 'if you have no intention of keeping your word, don't swear by God to do something when you don't mean it'. He said, "Just let your word ‘Yes’ mean yes, your ‘No,’ no" or in other words, when you make an agreement with someone, mean what you say.

It is so easy to take things out of context and put your own slant on them.

If we know our Bible....we should know all of it, not just words taken out of context to 'prove' our own point of view and to justify not doing what Jesus said we should do.

We don't want to be like.... :ignore:

 

[JayJayDee]

Mormons don't condemn anyone to hell, instead we do temple work for people who have died so that everyone can have the same opportunities and blessings.

I find that a little strange, since this is what Jesus has already done by his sacrifice. At death one is acquitted of sin. (Rom 6:7) The Bible teaches that there is no life after death except by resurrection.

In that promised resurrection, Jesus will call all the dead from their graves, 'both righteous and unrighteous' so that they will have an opportunity to get things right with God and receive his blessings. (John 5:28, 29)

The work commissioned by Jesus was the preaching of the kingdom in all the earth, not for a couple of years in a foreign field, but for the rest of our lives in our own neighborhoods. Like the apostles, it requires that we seek people out where they live and work. (Matt 28:19, 20; 10:11-15)