Which religion has the best fruit?

[IndigoChild5559]

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The Mormon church was where I experienced abuse - called by god - believed leaders were actually called by god. It doesn't sink in until its your kids. Until you get the phone call from the detective.

Thank God for secular court systems, he's in jail - the one who hurt my kids is now in jail, despite being protected by the church...

First of all, I'm so very, very sorry for what your child went through, and what you also went through as a result. Honestly, when my own kids were little, I sometimes worried that if they were molested that I would just lose my sanity and kill the offender. Nothing rips your heart out of your chest like your child being harmed, does it.

So many other cases out there. For others going through this - know your church friends are NOT your friends. Choose who you confide in carefully. The stranger down the street in police station - confide to police, NOT to anyone at church.

I understand now why you assume this is a religious thing, because the abuse of your own child happened at the hands of your church leaders. I have no wish to dismiss your feelings. My only intent here is to point out that when we generalize from a small sampling, we run a great risk of making a mistake.

Pedophiles, hebephiles, and ephebophiles are going to be everywhere there are children: the family, the neighborhood, youth organizations, schools, and religious institutions. 30-40% of child sexual abuse cases are committed by a family member, such as a step father, brother, or uncle. 10-20% are by live-in boyfriends. Stepfathers are about 5 to 8 times more likely to sexually abuse a child compared to biological fathers. Live-in boyfriends are at an even higher risk, with some studies showing they are 10 to 20 times more likely to commit sexual abuse than a biological father.

My first experience with molestation was my own at the age of seven. It was simply an older child down the street. There was no connection to any institution at all, either religious or secular.

My second experience was when I was 11 (sixth grade) and my teacher was molesting a fellow student. None of the adults believed her until she got pregnant. That of course, was a secular institution.

When I became a teacher later in life, there were two times a student was revealed to be molested. (I'm sure there were many more, but I only became aware of two.)

The first was a girl in my fifth grade class who became pregnant. Her mother was the president of the PTA, and her powerful family gave generously to the school. It was the father who molested her, and the school which reported it. The father did go to jail. The mother believed the school had destroyed her family, and using the many, many other parents she had influence over, she made everyone involved pay for it. This included me--I was treated for PTSD because of the non-stop harassment. Due to the pressure from the parents, the original principal was fired, and then the replacement principal fired as well. It tore the school apart and took many years to recover.

Years later, when I taught third grade, there was a very strict Catholic family that opted for their fourth grade daughter to be released from sex education. Guess who got pregnant. In this case, I just don't have more information than that.

Notice that the one thing all these school anecdotes share in common is that it doesn't come to light until the girl gets pregnant. I think part of this is because molested kids are taught to keep it a secret. But I think it also has to do with victims not being believed by adults in charge.

And finally, I had a very good friend who was devoutly Assembly of God, whose daughter was molested by the pastor's teenage son. When she went to the board, they told her to stop causing trouble, and kicked her out of the church.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Education - we follow data, we follow logic, NOT people. Newton, Einstein - they are great, but just people. Have to try experiments for ourself, educate with multiple sources, and rely on our own experiences.

I'm going to move past the fact that the average person simply doesn't have access to the data. The point is, that even when a person has the data, it doesn't mean that they'll know what to do with it. A genius like Hawking doesn't just have the data at his fingertips (much of it memorized); he knows how to connect the dots and reach conclusions.

I think I have a fairly good education and a reasonably good intelligence. Do you think I see myself as someone even remotely close to these geniuses? Nope. The only reason I can see far is because I can stand on their shoulders.

Spiritual leaders?? If someone went through war, survived unspeakable things, that gives them clout - but we each must be captain of our own ship - no one else knows our circumstance, no one else guides us - have to guide ourselves, study for ourself.

I'm not going to try to talk you out of this. You are a sensible person who can make your mind up for yourself. But i would like to share my own view as well.

I absolutely do not see all people as being equally spiritually gifted. We just aren't. On one end of the spectrum, you have psychopaths that wouldn't know what morality was if it bit them on the butt. And way over on the other side of the spectrum, you have people that are just so unusually good, kind, and compassionate that others take notice of this. Among these saints are those who have additional gifts of being able to discern what the obstacles are to a better, more meaningful existence, and who create solutions.

I am no slouch when it comes to pondering moral questions, and aspiring to become the very best person I can be. But I would like to share with you my experiences with Rabbi Shlomo Schwartz, also known as "Schwartzie." He was the rabbi of the Beverly Hills Chabad, and had a weekly show called "Ask the Rabbi" on KFI 640. Each week he would suggest a different ethical dilemma, and have people call into the show with their insights. At the end of the hour, he would give his own thoughts. Over and over and over I had the experience of "Son of a gun! He's right!" The truth was simply this--his capacity for moral reasoning was simply stupendous, and far far far greater than mine.

The reason that the legacies of people like Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Confucius and the rest have survived the test of time is because they are spiritual geniuses who know how to organize and present superior ideas and new insights in ways that the common person can understand them. I think they deserve a little respect, don't you?

Heirarchies are evil. Religious or political Heirarchies - one person calling the shots? Evil.

Actually most hierarchies are multi level, not just "one person calling the shots."

I think in many situations, hierarchy can be very practical. When I owned my own business, I "called the shots." Not only did I have knowledge and experience that my employees did not have, but it was my money that was on the line.

However, I would say that most of the time, I prefer groups negotiating to consensus rather than establishing a pecking order. I think my mindset is very female in that respect. I don't want my hubby to tell me where we are going for dinner, nor do I want to tell my hubby where we are going. I want us to have a discussion, turn over a few ideas, and decide on a place together.

I don't think hierarchies are innately evil. However, I do think that certain traits can turn them evil. When those in authority stop caring about the wellbeing of those under them, when they feel that questions are threats against them, when they cross the line into controlling a person in ways that are not appropriate... Yeah, things can go to hell in a handbasket.

The best systems out there are by the people. Secular.

I'm not sure why you automatically connect democracy with secularism. There have been religious groups that are congregationally based, and some have no hierarchy at all. Consider the Religious Society of Friends, also known as the Quakers. They have no pastors, no priests, no church board... They govern themselves through a system of consensus-based decision-making that emphasizes equality and communal discernment.

 

[idea]

I am a great supporter of democracy. But there are also other areas of life that you really do NOT want some sort of averaging of opinions. For example, I don't base my understanding of physics on the sum total of what people believe. Rather, I look to those geniuses such as Newton, Einstein, and Hawking, and others. IOW, there are times when you want experts, not common wisdom. The only question that remains is this: when it comes to religion, are we better off looking for an average, common view? Or are we better off learning from some sort of spiritual genius?

The Mormon church, and all cults use the same above argument.

In science, there is no single leader. The difference between plagiarism and legitimate research is that research involves verifying information from multiple sources, then combining with personal observations. Science values truth over individuals; it relies on principles, data, and peer-reviewed, quantifiable evidence rather than on individuals.

From data and personal experience, I view anyone claiming to be a prophet or spiritual leader as being mentally unstable. I'm an athiest. I've experienced groupthink - a scary thing. It's not God's spirit, it is hive mind, and it is not healthy.

Ode to heirarchies

Hierarchies, at their core, reveal much about our psychological landscape. They’re not just organizational tools; they’re mirrors reflecting our deep-seated insecurities and desires for control. When we construct hierarchies, we're essentially building a framework to manage our uncertainties and anxieties about our place in the world.
Consider how hierarchies often create a sense of superiority and inferiority, with some perched at the top, basking in their elevated status, while others toil in the lower rungs. This stratification provides a semblance of order and predictability in a chaotic world. The higher one climbs, the more control and validation they feel they gain, as though reaching the top somehow insulates them from the randomness of existence.
But this pursuit of status is fundamentally about grappling with our own fears. It’s a way to affirm our worth, to say, "I am valuable because I am higher up." The irony is that such structures do not eliminate our insecurities but rather reinforce them. The higher you rise, the more pressure you face to maintain your position, and the more you might worry about falling. It's a precarious perch that doesn’t truly solve our existential questions but instead amplifies them.
Moreover, hierarchies often disguise the shared humanity beneath the surface. By emphasizing differences in rank, they obscure the fact that everyone experiences doubt, struggle, and the search for meaning. In truth, the hierarchies we construct are just elaborate strategies to manage our internal uncertainties, all the while maintaining the illusion that we have a firm grasp on the chaotic nature of life.
In essence, hierarchies are like a complex mirage, a structure we create to soothe our insecurities, offering a false sense of order and control while masking the underlying reality of our shared vulnerability and the inherent unpredictability of existence.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I view anyone claiming to be a prophet or spiritual leader as being mentally unstable.

Not sure if you would be interested, but I made the attempt to address this via Dr. Robert Sapolsky's videos. To be succinct, he draws a parallel between religious behavioral biology and the phenomena of genetic illnesses being devastating in their full expression, but helpful in their minor form (which is a good deal more common). He discusses schizophrenia versus the milder and much more common schizotypal personality with its meta-magical thinking. And he discusses Obsessive Compulsive Disorder compared to milder and much more common inclination of humans towards ritualistic behaviors when under stress or feeling anxiety.

Which great religious leaders were not?

" Either a lunatic or a liar,as per the saying https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214

www.religiousforums.com

Hierarchies, at their core, reveal much about our psychological landscape. They’re not just organizational tools; they’re mirrors reflecting our deep-seated insecurities and desires for control. When we construct hierarchies, we're essentially building a framework to manage our uncertainties and anxieties about our place in the world.

In my mind, hierarchies are established to streamline order and decision making.

As I mentioned in my last post, men in general tend to prefer pecking orders, and women in general prefer egalitarian groups. I do realize these are generalizations, so there will be exceptions to the rules.

I certainly noticed this difference as an elementary educator. Among the boys, almost no one was excluded, but every boy knew his rank. Girls on the other hand tended to form small egalitarian groups, but there were clear lines who was in and who was out. Sure there was the occasional Queen Bee of the Mean Girls, just as there was occasionally a boy that none of the other boys would play with. But generally speaking, this just seemed to be the way things worked out on the playground.

But this pursuit of status is fundamentally about grappling with our own fears.

I think different things motivate different people. Are there whose who are ambitious because they are constantly trying to prove their own worth? Sure. Are there those who are ambitious because they are afraid of ending up back with too little again? Sure. But I would say the most common reason is that it is simply INSTINCTUAL for many people. They don't choose to have the drive to excel. They don't choose to have the drive to accumulate. They don't choose to have the drive to be the alpha. It's just the way they are wired.

I'd even go further and say that those instincts are actually pretty good to have. They help make a better life for you, your family, and whatever community you are a part of. It doesn't really get corrupted into something evil until these things are pursued at the expense of others.

offering a false sense of order and control

I'm not sure why you use the word false. Hierarchies ARE one way to create order out of chaos. They DO allow societies to have greater control. Having order and control doesn't take away all of one's vulnerability, but it certainly can lessen it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Baha’i system is unique in that it does not have any individual with power or authority in its system at all. Authority is in elected bodies. The system Baha’u’llah envisaged comprises of Local House of Justice, National Houses of Justice and the Universal House of Justice. Local and National bodies are elected by secret ballot annually and internationally every five years. There is no priesthood or clergy only elected bodies. And it is only for Baha’is. Theses bodies comprise of nine members who make decisions by consultation and the majority prevails. We are a world community consisting of a cross section of humanity from all religious, national and racial backgrounds and this model has kept us united for over 60 years. The constitution comes from the Most Holy Book of Baha’u’llah and His Writings and teachings.

 

[idea]

The Baha’i system is unique in that it does not have any individual with power or authority in its system at all. Authority is in elected bodies. The system Baha’u’llah envisaged comprises of Local House of Justice, National Houses of Justice and the Universal House of Justice. Local and National bodies are elected by secret ballot annually and internationally every five years. There is no priesthood or clergy only elected bodies. And it is only for Baha’is. Theses bodies comprise of nine members who make decisions by consultation and the majority prevails. We are a world community consisting of a cross section of humanity from all religious, national and racial backgrounds and this model has kept us united for over 60 years. The constitution comes from the Most Holy Book of Baha’u’llah and His Writings and teachings.

Your individual with power is Baha’u’llah.

No single book, no single leader for me . No religious groups for me.

I'm a teacher too, of older kids. Academia is a great community if you're in it for your students (not to appease admins). I'm proud to say I've won a few political battles over the years against supposed "authority" figures in big established heirarchies. Power corrupts. I don't respect "authority" figures, I respect data, and respect shared collective people-driven collective decisions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Baha’i system is unique in that it does not have any individual with power or authority in its system at all. Authority is in elected bodies. The system Baha’u’llah envisaged comprises of Local House of Justice, National Houses of Justice and the Universal House of Justice. Local and National bodies are elected by secret ballot annually and internationally every five years. There is no priesthood or clergy only elected bodies. And it is only for Baha’is. Theses bodies comprise of nine members who make decisions by consultation and the majority prevails. We are a world community consisting of a cross section of humanity from all religious, national and racial backgrounds and this model has kept us united for over 60 years. The constitution comes from the Most Holy Book of Baha’u’llah and His Writings and teachings.

The Religious Society of Friends is egalitarian. They do not have any pastors, priests, etc. Each church is managed through the consensus of its members. The denomination as a whole has various meetings (monthly, quarterly, yearly...) that any Quaker can attend.

 

[servant1]

By their fruits...

Blue zones - Okinawa (Japan), Ikaria (Greece), Loma Linda (USA), Sardinia (Italy), and Nicoya (Costa Rica).... who lives the longest?

Who has most cash? Who is happiest? Whose marriages work out the best?? Who has the most nobel peace prizes - who is smartest?.... Who has won the most wars?

By their fruits...

"I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore.." India has the most kids, Hinduism must be correct...

By their fruits...

Post the accomplishments of your chosen group. What makes your group chosen by God

If someone wins a war, lives longer, has more kids, doesn't get divorced, is blessed with wealth and prosperity - it is all from God, right? So let's look at data, which group is most blessed? Which group is chosen by God?

The one that obeys his son have the fruits spoken of.

 

[idea]

The one that obeys his son have the fruits spoken of.

Jews have the most Nobel Peace prizes, and a few other things... and they killed Jesus...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jews have the most Nobel Peace prizes, and a few other things...

Not most. But a substantial amount. We have won approximately 20-22% of all Nobel Prizes awarded. When you consider that we are only 0.2% of the population, THAT is when it becomes truly astounding.

and they killed Jesus...

Me? I never killed Jesus. I wasn't even in the neighborhood.

 

[The Hammer]

"Which religion has the best fruit?"

Whichever have the best gardeners.

 

[servant1]

Jews have the most Nobel Peace prizes, and a few other things... and they killed Jesus...

They outright refuse to do this-Matt 23:39, thus Jesus assures them in verse 38-they are cut off of being Gods chosen. Jesus started a new religion, its Christian= only 1, of all the ones claiming to be Christian.

 

[Viker]

By their fruits...

Blue zones - Okinawa (Japan), Ikaria (Greece), Loma Linda (USA), Sardinia (Italy), and Nicoya (Costa Rica).... who lives the longest?

Who has most cash? Who is happiest? Whose marriages work out the best?? Who has the most nobel peace prizes - who is smartest?.... Who has won the most wars?

By their fruits...

"I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore.." India has the most kids, Hinduism must be correct...

By their fruits...

Post the accomplishments of your chosen group. What makes your group chosen by God

If someone wins a war, lives longer, has more kids, doesn't get divorced, is blessed with wealth and prosperity - it is all from God, right? So let's look at data, which group is most blessed? Which group is chosen by God?

This is all supposed to be some sort of contest?

Why not who's the prettiest? Or who received the most gold stars in kindergarten? Who's got the most fashionable shoes or shirts? Who shines superior's boots the shiniest (with their tongues)?

Who really cares?

"Who's won the most wars?" How about who doesn't get into wars? (if Iceland were a religion I suppose it would win the grand god prize)

 

[idea]

This is all supposed to be some sort of contest?

Why not who's the prettiest? Or who received the most gold stars in kindergarten? Who's got the most fashionable shoes or shirts? Who shines superior's boots the shiniest (with their tongues)?

Who really cares?

"Who's won the most wars?" How about who doesn't get into wars? (if Iceland were a religion I suppose it would win the grand god prize)

How do you choose what restaurants to eat at? 5 star reviews? 1 star food poisoning reviews? Data, reviews. Which church has 5 star data? By their fruits, by the data.

 

[idea]

They outright refuse to do this-Matt 23:39, thus Jesus assures them in verse 38-they are cut off of being Gods chosen. Jesus started a new religion, its Christian= only 1, of all the ones claiming to be Christian.

Thew Jews are not cursed, they are winning their war right now, see - List of Jewish Nobel laureates - Wikipedia You claimed Christians have the best fruit, they don't.

Silly to say someone is "chosen" when data shows they are not.
Silly to say someone has fallen from favor, when they have not.

It's like saying someone won their football game because "God chose them" - (I'm an atheist by the way, think it is funny when some groups believe they are "chosen" when they are obviously NOT better at anything.)

Blessings come from work, education, happen to live in a decent country, born into a stable family - that is what blesses someone. NOT GOD. No blessings come from God. No "curse" comes from God. Purely a matter of happenstance and personal effort.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They outright refuse to do this-Matt 23:39, thus Jesus assures them in verse 38-they are cut off of being Gods chosen. Jesus started a new religion, its Christian= only 1, of all the ones claiming to be Christian.

This is part of a passage about the Pharisees, not the Jewish people. Nor is saying their house is desolate the same thing as saying that anyone is being cut off of being God's chosen.

 

[servant1]

Thew Jews are not cursed, they are winning their war right now, see - List of Jewish Nobel laureates - Wikipedia You claimed Christians have the best fruit, they don't.

Silly to say someone is "chosen" when data shows they are not.
Silly to say someone has fallen from favor, when they have not.

It's like saying someone won their football game because "God chose them" - (I'm an atheist by the way, think it is funny when some groups believe they are "chosen" when they are obviously NOT better at anything.)

Blessings come from work, education, happen to live in a decent country, born into a stable family - that is what blesses someone. NOT GOD. No blessings come from God. No "curse" comes from God. Purely a matter of happenstance and personal effort.

Sad for you sir.

 

[servant1]

This is part of a passage about the Pharisees, not the Jewish people. Nor is saying their house is desolate the same thing as saying that anyone is being cut off of being God's chosen.

Any who follow those religious leaders will lose. Jesus assured Matt 23:13--they close up the kingdom to all who listen to them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Any who follow those religious leaders will lose. Jesus assured Matt 23:13--they close up the kingdom to all who listen to them.

Jesus himself was a pharisee, but of the school of Hillel rather than Shammai.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sad for you sir.

Apparently you had no reply for his/her points.