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Whither Goest Thou, O Science!

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
So far as I've been told, we mostly owe the Victorians for the notion that society, in alliance with the sciences, is fated to evolve or progress towards a future characterized by (among other things) rationality, human well-being, happiness, and human flourishing.

Now, it is sometimes said that the Victorians were merely borrowing their notion of progress from Christianity. Specifically, the Christian idea that the world is evolving or progressing towards a post-Apocalyptic Golden Age of humanity. However, mythologist such as Mircea Eliade and others have long pointed out that the notion humanity is progressing towards a Golden Age is quite widespread, usually has nothing to do with Christianity, and apparently dates back to time immemorial.

Indeed, I am of the opinion that the concept of progress is deeply rooted in us -- encoded somehow in our DNA. Perhaps my main reason for thinking progress is an inherent concept is because it is a key and essential component of narratives, and narratives are ubiquitous to humans. That is, we are a story-telling animal. Everywhere on earth, regardless of the local culture and customs, we are a story-telling animal. How best to explain that fact than to at least suspect story-telling is rooted in our genes?

Yet, if story-telling or narrative is rooted in our genes, then so is -- in one form or another -- the concept of progress, for without some kind of progression, there is no such thing as a story. All you would have are a string of facts or events.

Hence, when we speak of 'the Victorian Concept of Progress', we must be careful to understand that the Victorians did not actually invent the notion of progress, nor did the Christians before them, but rather, they cast or shaped the concept in a more or less uniquely Victorian way by (1) conceiving of science as force driving progress and (2) by conceiving of the outcome of progress as a future characterized by (among other things) rationality, human well-being, happiness, and human flourishing.

Now, it does not take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist to know what's 'iffy' about the Victorian notion. Namely science -- and those things associated with science (e.g. rationality) -- do not necessitate, do not guarantee a future of rationality, human well-being, happiness, and human flourishing. Indeed, they seem capable of leading to quite the opposite! Just imagine science yoked to an Orwellian state and making possible unimaginably effective technologies of oppression! Such is actually within the realm of possibility.

But here's the tricky part: Some people appear to have simply flipped the coin. Instead of saying science guarantees a rosy future, they say science guarantees a nightmare future.

So, is there any more merit to the later view than there is to the former? Or, more to the point: Whither is science taking us? And is it somehow fated to take us there?



 

Secret Chief

Very strong language
Science is a tool, whether there is "progress" or "regress" is not within its remit; so science is not "taking" us anywhere. There is no fate to it. We can develop antibiotics AND we can develop weapons of war.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Science guarantees a future, good or bad i think depends on the person. Imagine what Mr Average from 150 years ago would have thought of today's horseless carriages, metal birds and instant world wide communication. The health benefits alone are worth it to most people.

But there are always a few throwbacks, anti science because "my version of my religion does not recognise it as godly'
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Science is a way of gaining knowledge. But, knowledge and wisdom are different things.

Knowledge tells you how you can do things. Wisdom tells you what should be done.

Knowledge is power. Wisdom is knowing how to use that power effectively.

An old saying:

Knowledge without compassion is monstrous. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective.

Part of wisdom is having compassion in your goals.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Indeed, I am of the opinion that the concept of progress is deeply rooted in us -- encoded somehow in our DNA. Perhaps my main reason for thinking progress is an inherent concept is because it is a key and essential component of narratives, and narratives are ubiquitous to humans.

It seems to me that "narrative" is an organizing technique utilizing our propensity for pattern-matching. Much the same might said of some instances of poetry, song, and, trivially, abbreviation - so, for example, COVID-19 = Corona Virus Disease - 2019.

It also seems to me that "progress" is simply and essentially kinetic narrative. While the term has come to connote a development from one state to some better state, that is certainly not a requirement.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
First, I think you are wrong about a progressive Christian (or religious for that matter) narrative. Their story is about decay, the golden age is followed by the silver age, not the other way around. Everything moves towards an apocalypse and only after that humans get their new paradise handed by a godhead.

The Victorian idea of progress is based on human ingenuity, influenced by the Enlightenment's ideals of the responsibility to think and act for ourselves. We are going to make our utopia, not wait for it getting handed to us. Maybe for the first time in history.

And it isn't even a concept in the mind of all people. Roughly half of people are conservative. Progress comes only against their fierce opposition.

And yes, progress is scary. You don't know what you get. We only know:

It isn't guaranteed that things get better when they change -
but they have to change to get better.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
First, I think you are wrong about a progressive Christian (or religious for that matter) narrative. Their story is about decay, the golden age is followed by the silver age, not the other way around. Everything moves towards an apocalypse and only after that humans get their new paradise handed by a godhead.

The Victorian idea of progress is based on human ingenuity, influenced by the Enlightenment's ideals of the responsibility to think and act for ourselves. We are going to make our utopia, not wait for it getting handed to us. Maybe for the first time in history.

And it isn't even a concept in the mind of all people. Roughly half of people are conservative. Progress comes only against their fierce opposition.

And yes, progress is scary. You don't know what you get. We only know:

It isn't guaranteed that things get better when they change -
but they have to change to get better.

That's actually a very good point. Most of the myths of a Golden Age happened in the *past*. That is hardly an idea of progress. Instead, it is an idea of degeneration and decay.

One difference in Christian theology is that Christ will come in the future to rule *on Earth*, meaning there is a Golden Age in the *future*.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Science, on its own, won't take us anywhere. It will always be up to we human users of science to potentially decide where it takes us.

I say "potentially" with good reason. Take the subject of Super Artificial Intelligence, which I believe we are closer to than many people imagine. Have we, do you suppose, actually thought of all of the directions that might take, what the possible outcomes are? Consider that SAI will be capable of upgrading itself orders of magnitude faster than humans, who must rely on the glacial pace of evolution, and our ability to learn new things -- a time-consuming activity.

Will SAI think of humans as necessary? Will SAI contemplate us at all, anymore than we contemplate the insects we try to spray out of existence?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
That's actually a very good point. Most of the myths of a Golden Age happened in the *past*. That is hardly an idea of progress. Instead, it is an idea of degeneration and decay.

One difference in Christian theology is that Christ will come in the future to rule *on Earth*, meaning there is a Golden Age in the *future*.
Everything moves towards an apocalypse and only after that humans get their new paradise handed by a godhead.

That is Christian. Going down and being saved.

Victorian progress is going up through human endeavour.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
It's pretty simple, really. It all begins in our brains.

We humans been making moral progress, most likely since the Beginning. That's due to conscience, moral intuition which emerges from the unconscious side of our brain. We are punished with guilt when we intentionally harm others and rewarded with pleasure when we treat others with kindness. In other words, our brains are training us morally using the reward and punishment method.

Meanwhile, in the conscious side of our brain, the reasoning function has the capability of building tools, like the ax, which can be used to cut down trees to build shelters or to kill the men of the neighboring clan, enslave their women, and prove that we are the superior tribe.

So, the survival of our species depends on how we decide to use our tools. If conscience dominates, we'll survive and thrive. If not, we'll destroy ourselves.
 
Last edited:

Audie

Veteran Member
So far as I've been told, we mostly owe the Victorians for the notion that society, in alliance with the sciences, is fated to evolve or progress towards a future characterized by (among other things) rationality, human well-being, happiness, and human flourishing.

Now, it is sometimes said that the Victorians were merely borrowing their notion of progress from Christianity. Specifically, the Christian idea that the world is evolving or progressing towards a post-Apocalyptic Golden Age of humanity. However, mythologist such as Mircea Eliade and others have long pointed out that the notion humanity is progressing towards a Golden Age is quite widespread, usually has nothing to do with Christianity, and apparently dates back to time immemorial.

Indeed, I am of the opinion that the concept of progress is deeply rooted in us -- encoded somehow in our DNA. Perhaps my main reason for thinking progress is an inherent concept is because it is a key and essential component of narratives, and narratives are ubiquitous to humans. That is, we are a story-telling animal. Everywhere on earth, regardless of the local culture and customs, we are a story-telling animal. How best to explain that fact than to at least suspect story-telling is rooted in our genes?

Yet, if story-telling or narrative is rooted in our genes, then so is -- in one form or another -- the concept of progress, for without some kind of progression, there is no such thing as a story. All you would have are a string of facts or events.

Hence, when we speak of 'the Victorian Concept of Progress', we must be careful to understand that the Victorians did not actually invent the notion of progress, nor did the Christians before them, but rather, they cast or shaped the concept in a more or less uniquely Victorian way by (1) conceiving of science as force driving progress and (2) by conceiving of the outcome of progress as a future characterized by (among other things) rationality, human well-being, happiness, and human flourishing.

Now, it does not take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist to know what's 'iffy' about the Victorian notion. Namely science -- and those things associated with science (e.g. rationality) -- do not necessitate, do not guarantee a future of rationality, human well-being, happiness, and human flourishing. Indeed, they seem capable of leading to quite the opposite! Just imagine science yoked to an Orwellian state and making possible unimaginably effective technologies of oppression! Such is actually within the realm of possibility.

But here's the tricky part: Some people appear to have simply flipped the coin. Instead of saying science guarantees a rosy future, they say science guarantees a nightmare future.

So, is there any more merit to the later view than there is to the former? Or, more to the point: Whither is science taking us? And is it somehow fated to take us there?




Thou waxeth most verbose.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That's actually a very good point. Most of the myths of a Golden Age happened in the *past*. That is hardly an idea of progress. Instead, it is an idea of degeneration and decay.

One difference in Christian theology is that Christ will come in the future to rule *on Earth*, meaning there is a Golden Age in the *future*.

Not really. Its about getting back to the golden age.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Indeed, I am of the opinion that the concept of progress is deeply rooted in us -- encoded somehow in our DNA. Perhaps my main reason for thinking progress is an inherent concept is because it is a key and essential component of narratives, and narratives are ubiquitous to humans.

The counter example is India with the concept of cyclical times of golden, silver, bronze and iron (dark) ages.

Just imagine science yoked to an Orwellian state and making possible unimaginably effective technologies of oppression! Such is actually within the realm of possibility.

China is there already with with a do what you're told or else mentality linked to technology. There might be a lot of surveillance in the UK, but from what I've seen China has a lot more hands down.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Science, on its own, won't take us anywhere. It will always be up to we human users of science to potentially decide where it takes us.

I say "potentially" with good reason. Take the subject of Super Artificial Intelligence, which I believe we are closer to than many people imagine. Have we, do you suppose, actually thought of all of the directions that might take, what the possible outcomes are? Consider that SAI will be capable of upgrading itself orders of magnitude faster than humans, who must rely on the glacial pace of evolution, and our ability to learn new things -- a time-consuming activity.

Will SAI think of humans as necessary? Will SAI contemplate us at all, anymore than we contemplate the insects we try to spray out of existence?
Science on its own..probably won't, true to me.

Here's some AI optimism: A lot depends upon whether we can become users of AI without having to learn Bayesian Statistics and multiprocessor programming. In other words a lot depends upon whether we can make it as easy to use AI as building a powerpoint presentation. I think we can. I think what will happen (optimistically) is we (in countries where people are not inhibited from using open technology) will learn to handle smart interfaces which are limited in their AI capabilities but which will translate our intentions and make programs from them for more powerful AI networks. In a sense it will be like asking Siri to write a program for you, and Siri will ask about the specifics and borrow as much programming power as is needed. Then Siri will translate your request technically and put your request into an AI network which will construct what you need using multiple servers in the cloud. Science fiction becomes engineering fact. Having this kind of capability in a public library is likely to happen in at least one or two countries and is already possible. At least I think we nearly have (just considering what GP3 can do) the capability now to make it possible.

The runaway SAI is possible, too. I don't think it will happen though. Why...it just seems like an AI would have little motivation. Humans for example have to face the question of why to carry on when things seem pointless. A runaway AI being probably won't be able to tackle that question and becoming self aware will likely stop functioning. It seems to me. This to me is also one of the (many) possible answers for the Fermi paradox. Knowing just how big the universe is and how tiny we are, its very reasonable to ask "Why go on?"
 
irst, I think you are wrong about a progressive Christian (or religious for that matter) narrative. Their story is about decay, the golden age is followed by the silver age, not the other way around. Everything moves towards an apocalypse and only after that humans get their new paradise handed by a godhead.

This isn't really correct.

A common view would be that The Fall caused the decline of humanity, and the process ever since had been incrementally regaining that which had been lost.

The tradition according to which Adam was in possession of the perfect philosophy implies that human minds had originally been designed to know the truth, and that if those impediments that arose as a consequence of the Fall could be identified and neutralized, the mind would once again, of its own nature, arrive at truth or at least be better equipped to do so.

Francis Bacon, as is well known, saw in the sciences the prospect of restoring, or at least repairing, the losses to knowledge that had resulted from the Fall.9 His emphasis lay on purging the mind of those flaws introduced by Adam’s defection. Describing his goal as ‘the true end and termination of error’, he suggested that this could only be accomplished if knowledge was ‘discharged of that venom which the serpent infused into it’

Peter Harrison - The fall of man and the foundations of modern science

This was the environment in which experimental natural philosophy (precursor to modern science) gained popular legitimacy as a method to circumvent the limitations of the human mind.

Also the fact that there would be an eschaton creates a naturally progressive salvation narrative.

This contrasts with the more common tragic view of history which is cyclical with humans bound to repeat their errors in a cycle of rise and fall with no means of escape.
 
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