Who created all things: God or the Son?

[101G]

Addressing the OP, only ONE "Person" created all things, answer, JESUS, who is LORD, Made all things. and when I say JESUS, the LORD, I'm saying, JESUS the Ordinal First.

Jesus, the Ordinal First is "CREATOR" and "MAKER" of All things, per Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 44:24.

Jesus, the Ordinal Last CREATED, and MADE nothing, but he, the Ordinal Last, "SAVED", and "REDEEMED" all that he MADE.

people KNOW YOUR BIBLE.

101G.

 

[dybmh]

Addressing the OP, only ONE "Person" created all things, answer, JESUS, who is LORD, Made all things. and when I say JESUS, the LORD, I'm saying, JESUS the Ordinal First.

Jesus, the Ordinal First is "CREATOR" and "MAKER" of All things, per Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 44:24.

Jesus, the Ordinal Last CREATED, and MADE nothing, but he, the Ordinal Last, "SAVED", and "REDEEMED" all that he MADE.

people KNOW YOUR BIBLE.

101G.

Well, at least you've conceded that the creator is singular. That's definite progress. Well done.

 

[101G]

Well, at least you've conceded that the creator is singular. That's definite progress. Well done.

one day you might catch up with 101G......

101G

 

[101G]

Well, at least you've conceded that the creator is singular. That's definite progress. Well done.

Single in person, not in designation...... of TIME, PLACE, ORDER, or RANK. ....... (smile), you have no clue of the ECHAD of God.

101G

 

[Mark La Buda]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

o0o0

God Almighty’s first creation was his “only-begotten Son” (John 3:16), “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Revelation 3:14) This one, “the firstborn of all creation,” was used by God in creating all other things, those in the heavens and those upon the earth, “the things visible and the things invisible.” (Colossians 1:15-17) John’s inspired testimony concerning this Son, the Word, is that “all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence,” and the apostle identifies the Word as Jesus Christ, who had become flesh. (John 1:3, 10, 14) As wisdom personified, this One is represented as saying, “God himself produced me as the beginning of his way,” and he tells of his association with God the Creator as His “master worker.” (Proverbs 8:22-31) In view of the close association of God and his only-begotten Son in creative activity and because that Son is “the image of the invisible God”-Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Compare Genesis 1:26, 27. Notice that different use of the words "make" and "create."

 

[Eli G]

In the visions of Revelation 4 and 5, both Jehovah and Jesus can be seen in the central symbolic place from where the Universe is ruled. One of the two is presented exclusively sitting on the throne, and Jesus as an external character who receives a book of prophecies from his hand. It is truth that both of them receive some praise in heavens, like we can read there:

Rev. 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

But we must not confuse the reasons why each of them specifically receives praise. When heavenly creatures pay homage to Jesus, they DO NOT do so as if he were their God, but for VERY DIFFERENT reasons.

Rev. 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (...) 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.”

However, they praise God for completely different reasons.

Rev. 4:9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanksgiving to the One seated on the throne, the One who lives forever and ever, 10 the 24 elders fall down before the One seated on the throne and worship the One who lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 “You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

In the heavens only Jehovah, the One sitting on the throne, is recognized as the Creator of all things, and that matches EXACTLY what we learn in the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[101G]

In the visions of Revelation 4 and 5, both Jehovah and Jesus can be seen in the central symbolic place from where the Universe is ruled. One of the two is presented exclusively sitting on the throne, and Jesus as an external character who receives a book of prophecies from his hand. It is truth that both of them receive some praise in heavens, like we can read there:

ERROR, only ONE SIT on the Throne, see, Revelation 4:2 & 3. and that's JESUS, the Ordinal First whom you say is Jehovah.
and you said, "Jesus as an external character who receives a book of prophecies from his hand".
if this is TRUE, then I have one Question, "WHO is more powerful than your Jehovah to give him power?" because he who sits on the throne received "POWER", scripture, Revelation 4:10 "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying," Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
so, who gave your Jehovah power? book chapter and verse please.

and when you answer that then you swill know who sits on the throne in chapter 5

101G.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

God is a Spirit. John 4:24

God's name was YHWH as revealed to Moses at the burning bush. Exodus 3:15

He (God/YHWH) created all things by himself. Isaiah 44:24

He later manifest himself in the flesh. (i.e. he took on a body) 1 Timothy 3:16

Messiah was the image (the body) of the invisible God. Colossians 1:14-15

The Spirit of God (i.e. the Father) was dwelling in that body (i.e. the son). John

God had sent a forerunner - the voice in the wilderness (John the Baptist) to prepare the way of YHWH. Isaiah 40:3

He came to his own, but his own didn't recognize him. John 1:10-11

Messiah tried to tell them in many different ways that he was God. i.e. I (the body) and my Father (the Spirit) are one. But they tried to stone him for claiming to be God. John 10:30-33

He said if you don't believe I am he, you shall die in your sins. John 8:23-24

He said he was before Abraham. Once again they tried to stone him. (the body wasn't before Abraham, but the Spirit was) John 8:56-59

He told them if they destroyed the temple of his body that he would raise it up himself. John 2:19-22 And we know from other scriptures that God raised up the body.

He also gave prophecy that the Son would also be called the mighty God and the everlasting Father. Isaiah 9:6

It was also prophesied that YHWH would be a stone of stumbling and rock of offense to both the houses of Israel. Isaiah 8:13-14 which was fulfilled in the new testament by the Messiah.

YHWH said I am the first and the last. Isaiah 44:6 The Messiah makes the same claim in Revelation 22:12-13 You can't have more than one that is the first and the last. YHWH also said there was no Saviour besides him. Isaiah 45:21 and Isaiah 43:11

Summary: Our Saviour was YHWH in a fleshly body.

 

[Eli G]

... YHWH in a fleshly body.

That is not what Jesus taught.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit (...)

God, Jehovah, is invisible, Spirit, and has never been and can never be observed by physical human eyes. (2 Cor. 3:17; 1 Tim. 1:17; Hb. 11:27)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

That is not what Jesus taught.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit (...)

God, Jehovah, is invisible, Spirit, and has never been and can never be observed by physical human eyes. (2 Cor. 3:17; 1 Tim. 1:17; Hb. 11:27)

He said if you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father. John 14:6 and John 14:9
He also said the Father (the Spirit) that dwells in me - he does the works. John 14:10
And he said I and my Father (the Spirit) are ONE. John 10:30

You are correct that God is a Spirit. But once he took on a physical body to dwell in you could then see him via that body. Messiah was the image (or the body if you will) of the invisible God. Colossians 1:15

Hope this helps.

 

[Eli G]

We can see God, our Creator, in the person of Jesus, for the simple fact that our Creator cannot be distinguished by human eyes but rather it is his personality that can be understood. Jesus was close to his heavenly Father for a long time before coming to earth. As his Son, he knew the personality of our Creator and certainly his own personality is a perfect example of what his Father would be like if we could distinguish his personality in a broader sense.

On the Internet I have seen many videos of little children who copy the gestures that their parents make to look like them, imitating them. How much more is Jesus a perfect imitation of the personality of his Father!!!! That does not mean that they are the same person, nor that they are identical, but that the personality of the Father can be seen in that of the Son whom we can in some way discern as a human being, because he was a human who walked among us.

John explaines that this way:

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

We can see God, our Creator, in the person of Jesus, for the simple fact that our Creator cannot be distinguished by human eyes but rather it is his personality that can be understood. Jesus was close to his heavenly Father for a long time before coming to earth. As his Son, he knew the personality of our Creator and certainly his own personality is a perfect example of what his Father would be like if we could distinguish his personality in a broader sense.

On the Internet I have seen many videos of little children who copy the gestures that their parents make to look like them, imitating them. How much more is Jesus a perfect imitation of the personality of his Father!!!! That does not mean that they are the same person, nor that they are identical, but that the personality of the Father can be seen in that of the Son whom we can in some way discern as a human being, because he was a human who walked among us.

John explaines that this way:

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

Hi Eli ,
In Isaiah 44:24 God said he made all things. He also said he stretched out the heavens alone, and spread out the earth by himself.

Now look at John 1:10-11 which says he was in the world and the world was made by him, but the world did not recognize him. He came unto his own but his own did not receive him.

Who was it that was in the world, and the world was made by him but the world didn't recognize?

 

[Eli G]

...
Now look at John 1:10-11 which says he was in the world and the world was made by him, but the world did not recognize him. He came unto his own but his own did not receive him.

Who was it that was in the world, and the world was made by him but the world didn't recognize?

You are making the same mistake that thousands of other believers make by not checking the original Greek to see if what you read in Bible translations is correctly translated.

The Greek preposition διά does not mean by but through.

Obviously, we don't have to know Greek when we study the Bible, but if we quote Bible verses where a single word can change the interpretation of the text, then we have to check if that word means what the translation we are reading has written in our language.

The Greek preposition διά has been incorrectly translated in many Bible verses that refer to Jesus' participation in creation. Obviously, if we translate that preposition correctly the interpretation of those verses is completely different. See these texts as examples: John 1:3,4; Col. 1:6; Hb. 1:2.

This happens with many other Greek words that are poorly translated into our languages in many biblical versions that have not been reviewed with sufficient care, or that have been edited and produced by people who do not have enough knowledge to carry out a work as important as translating the written Word of God.

Every Christian who is serious about what beliefs he should embrace and how to demonstrate them biblically must take the time to verify whether what he believes is really a biblical teaching or an incorrect interpretation due to a sloppy translation of the original text.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You are making the same mistake that thousands of other believers make by not checking the original Greek to see if what you read in Bible translations is correctly translated.

The Greek preposition διά does not mean by but through.

Obviously, we don't have to know Greek when we study the Bible, but if we quote Bible verses where a single word can change the interpretation of the text, then we have to check if that word means what the translation we are reading has written in our language.

The Greek preposition διά has been incorrectly translated in many Bible verses that refer to Jesus' participation in creation. Obviously, if we translate that preposition correctly the interpretation of those verses is completely different. See these texts as examples: John 1:3,4; Col. 1:6; Hb. 1:2.

This happens with many other Greek words that are poorly translated into our languages in many biblical versions that have not been reviewed with sufficient care, or that have been edited and produced by people who do not have enough knowledge to carry out a work as important as translating the written Word of God.

Every Christian who is serious about what beliefs he should embrace and how to demonstrate them biblically must take the time to verify whether what he believes is really a biblical teaching or an incorrect interpretation due to a sloppy translation of the original text.

Well to begin with the NT was actually written in Aramaic first and then translated into Greek. Even all the Greek documents don't agree with each other on everything. And we don't have an original Greek manuscript anyway.

The word logos used in John 1: means thought , idea, plan, concept, etc. In the beginning was the plan, and the plan was with God, and the plan was God. When the time came for that plan to come to fruition, God took on flesh.

Some of those Greek words have much more flexibility than you are giving them credit for. Are you a Greek expert? If I look through all the hundreds of passages with "dia" and find some that can't be translated as through, will you accept that as proof?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You are making the same mistake that thousands of other believers make by not checking the original Greek to see if what you read in Bible translations is correctly translated.

The Greek preposition διά does not mean by but through.

Obviously, we don't have to know Greek when we study the Bible, but if we quote Bible verses where a single word can change the interpretation of the text, then we have to check if that word means what the translation we are reading has written in our language.

The Greek preposition διά has been incorrectly translated in many Bible verses that refer to Jesus' participation in creation. Obviously, if we translate that preposition correctly the interpretation of those verses is completely different. See these texts as examples: John 1:3,4; Col. 1:6; Hb. 1:2.

This happens with many other Greek words that are poorly translated into our languages in many biblical versions that have not been reviewed with sufficient care, or that have been edited and produced by people who do not have enough knowledge to carry out a work as important as translating the written Word of God.

Every Christian who is serious about what beliefs he should embrace and how to demonstrate them biblically must take the time to verify whether what he believes is really a biblical teaching or an incorrect interpretation due to a sloppy translation of the original text.

I forgot to ask you something else. Would you please explain what it means to you about the world being created through him.

What is the difference to you when we say: we are redeemed/saved through his blood - vs. we are redeemed/saved by this blood?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning GOD created [all things]…’

John 1:1 - ‘In the beginning [THE WORD] created all things’

You all know the full verses … But clearly there is a problem - the two claims do not agree!

Who, exactly, is ‘God’?

Where did the WORD come from?

We know the ALMIGHTY word spoken BY God that created a things in the beginning, don’t we? What was it? Was it not: ‘Let there be light!’

Specifically, who are these words attributed to: God, or The Word…

Or is it sensibly just, ‘The word of God’, that created all things?

Reading further in Genesis, you will find absolutely no reference ‘The Word’… (as in ‘Son of God’ / Jesus)… is that strange seeing that certain Christian groups clearly claim that it was ‘Jesus’ who created all things (‘God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.’ (John 1:3)

Not only does that verse alter the creation story in Genesis but it puts in place an entity that was never mentioned in Genesis. In fact, never mentioned in any verse anywhere in the whole of the Old Testament.

Here, in John 1: 1-3 we have an entirely new ‘person’ who is also claimed to be GOD… ‘The Word’.

But, again, nothing of ‘The Word’ is stated in the Old Testament. And even after Jesus does appear as the messiah, he himself says nothing about having created anything (carried out the greatest event in the whole of world activity!)

I do ponder, though, that the term, ‘Father’, means: ‘Creator, Bringer into being, Giver of life’, yet Jesus (or ‘the word’) is not attributed to this term. Instead, an entity of God, exactly called, ‘The Father’, is attributed to creation!

In fact, BOTH ‘GOD’ and ‘The Father’ are stated as ‘Creating all things’, which logically the two go together!! AND, Jesus, on appearing as a man on earth (that it’s claimed he created by some Christian groups) clearly states that he can do nothing except what he sees God (or the Father) doing first. In fact, he, Jesus was ‘Taught by God/The Father how and what to do and say’.

So, how is it that Jesus/The Son is supposed to have carried out the greatest event of all time (!!) and yet has to be taught how to exist in that event? This is a problem when we are expected to believe that Jesus pre-existed, and is therefore a Spirit (that’s a problem in itself as the only spirits we know of at the time of creation are God and the angels - and we know God created the angels - or did Jesus/the Son/the word?) and not a man (human/flesh being).

Can anyone throw light on this huge anomaly - a conundrum of almighty importance in Christian scriptural matters?

God is a Spirit. He created all things. Later when the time was right, he took on a body. That body was the image of the invisible God. The body did not exist until it was made of a woman, made under the law. But the Spirit dwelling in that body had created all things.

 

[Soapy]

God is a Spirit. He created all things. Later when the time was right, he took on a body. That body was the image of the invisible God. The body did not exist until it was made of a woman, made under the law. But the Spirit dwelling in that body had created all things.

Did you just make that up yourself?

YHWH God prophesied through the prophet, Isaiah:

• ‘Behold my Servant, my beloved that I have chosen. I will put my Spirit on him and he shall do my bidding…’ (Isaiah 42:1)

Are you saying that God is his own Servant whom He put His own spirit onto to make Himself have power:

• ‘… God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him (Acts 10:38)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Did you just make that up yourself?

YHWH God prophesied through the prophet, Isaiah:

• ‘Behold my Servant, my beloved that I have chosen. I will put my Spirit on him and he shall do my bidding…’ (Isaiah 42:1)

Are you saying that God is his own Servant whom He put His own spirit onto to make Himself have power:

• ‘… God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him (Acts 10:38)

No I didn't make it up.

See John 4:24
Isaiah 44:24
1 Timothy 3:16 and Hebrews 2:14
Colossians 1:15
Galatians 4:4

To whom is the arm of YHWH revealed? Isaiah 53:1
If he was going to do it with his own arm doesn't that mean it was him? Isaiah 59:16-17
He said I and my Father are one. John 10:30

 

[Eli G]

I forgot to ask you something else. Would you please explain what it means to you about the world being created through him.

What is the difference to you when we say: we are redeemed/saved through his blood - vs. we are redeemed/saved by this blood?

It is something like this:

Prov. 8:
22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time

 

[Eli G]

Jesus' role in creation can be thought of as a living instrument.

If the Father, Primary Source of the holy spirit (his powerful "intelligent" energy), puts a lot of that force in Jesus, causing Jesus to execute works that he could not execute without that energy that comes from God, who would be truly responsible for that work?

The Bible uses an expression to refer to the powerful energy of God acting through the physical hand of another person: "the finger of God." Look at these examples:

Exo. 8:16 Jehovah now said to Moses: “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your rod and strike the dust of the earth, and it must become gnats in all the land of Egypt.’” 17 And they did this. Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod and struck the dust of the earth, and the gnats came on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats in all the land of Egypt. 18 The magic-practicing priests tried to do the same and produce gnats by their secret arts, but they could not. And the gnats came on man and beast. 19 So the magic-practicing priests said to Pharʹaoh: “It is the finger of God!” But Pharʹaoh’s heart continued to be obstinate, and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had said.

Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God’s finger that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.