Who created Hamas?

[Cordelro]

Josep Borell said: "The Israeli government itself has been boycotting a two-state solution for 30 years. In order to prevent it, they themselves created Hamas. Hamas was funded by the Israeli government to weaken Fatah's Palestinian Authority." Josep Borrell is a Spanish politician serving as High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy since 1 December 2019.

Is Josep Borrell right or not?
Two questions arise: 1. How could Israel be so surprised? Were the Israeli secret services asleep? 2. Why did it take so long for the Israeli military to remove the Hamas from the country? Allegedly it took over 3 hours for the military to react and it took 2 days for the military to remove the Hamas from the country. Isn't that a bit too long for the modern Israeli military?

If we just assume that Israel itself ordered the Hamas leaders to carry out this attack, the question arises as to what goal they are pursuing. A possible answer would be that they were looking for an excuse to kill and expel the population of Gaza to send Israeli settlers there.

It is clear that the Western media spread aggressive anti-Palestinian propaganda during the attack. Pictures and videos of Hamas victims were posted, it was claimed that babies were beheaded and burned, etc. and the name "the Palestinians" was always mentioned. There was a clear attempt to discredit the entire people of Gaza in order to justify the bombing of Gaza.

It is also noticeable how they justify the high death toll of civilians in Gaza with a certain reason. Again and again you hear the statement that "Israel is bombing civilian structures because Hamas is hiding in them". This reason is accepted and spread by the Western media without any questioning.

It is also strange that even Israeli ministers have openly admitted that they want to destroy the whole of Gaza. There are also videos of Israeli soldiers celebrating and singing: "There are no civilians in Gaza" Critics see this as genocidal intent.

I also find the behavior of the USA very bizarre. On the one hand they claim how sorry they are for Gaza and that Israel is overdoing it, but it is the US that continuously sends a lot of weapons to Israel and it was the US that vetoed a ceasefire in Gaza three times. In response to Biden stating Israel's actions were "over the top," the EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell stated, "If you believe that too many people are being killed, maybe you should provide less arms in order to prevent so many people being killed."

I also find it strange how Egypt is criticized in the Western media for not taking in refugees. A better question would be why Israel doesn't take in the refugees? Why can't the civilians of Gaza seek protection on Israeli territory? Why does it have to be Egypt?

In the Gaza Strip there are about 2.4 million people.

 

[Wirey]

There's an easy solution. The people of Gaza return the hostages being held, and turn over the criminals kidnappers who took them. Israel will leave. We should all advocate for that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I also find the behavior of the USA very bizarre. On the one hand they claim how sorry they are for Gaza and that Israel is overdoing it, but it is the US that continuously sends a lot of weapons to Israel and it was the US that vetoed a ceasefire in Gaza three times. In response to Biden stating Israel's actions were "over the top," the EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell stated, "If you believe that too many people are being killed, maybe you should provide less arms in order to prevent so many people being killed."

Genocide Joe is just playing cynical political games. The White House knows young people are outraged over the genocide and are rejecting Zionism. There is also anger within the State Department and intelligence agencies over us continually arming Israel, with a dissent cable created a few months ago over it. This level of anger and dissent against our Israel policies has never been seen before in the US.

It's just about politics. They don't give a damn about the Palestinians. If they did, they could cut the supply of arms at any moment. Instead, Joe bypassed Congress to rush Israel more arms! To add insult to injury, one of the aid parcels we sent to Gaza might've malfunctioned during the air drop and crushed 5 people to death (including a couple of kids from what I read), but they officially denied it was ours. Sure it wasn't.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If we just assume that Israel itself ordered the Hamas leaders to carry out this attack, ...

Grossly stupid conspiratorial claims do a disservice to Israelis and Palestinians alike. That some might "just assume" such rubbish is sick.

 

[Stevicus]

Josep Borell said: "The Israeli government itself has been boycotting a two-state solution for 30 years. In order to prevent it, they themselves created Hamas. Hamas was funded by the Israeli government to weaken Fatah's Palestinian Authority." Josep Borrell is a Spanish politician serving as High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy since 1 December 2019.

Is Josep Borrell right or not?
Two questions arise: 1. How could Israel be so surprised? Were the Israeli secret services asleep? 2. Why did it take so long for the Israeli military to remove the Hamas from the country? Allegedly it took over 3 hours for the military to react and it took 2 days for the military to remove the Hamas from the country. Isn't that a bit too long for the modern Israeli military?

If we just assume that Israel itself ordered the Hamas leaders to carry out this attack, the question arises as to what goal they are pursuing. A possible answer would be that they were looking for an excuse to kill and expel the population of Gaza to send Israeli settlers there.

It is clear that the Western media spread aggressive anti-Palestinian propaganda during the attack. Pictures and videos of Hamas victims were posted, it was claimed that babies were beheaded and burned, etc. and the name "the Palestinians" was always mentioned. There was a clear attempt to discredit the entire people of Gaza in order to justify the bombing of Gaza.

It is also noticeable how they justify the high death toll of civilians in Gaza with a certain reason. Again and again you hear the statement that "Israel is bombing civilian structures because Hamas is hiding in them". This reason is accepted and spread by the Western media without any questioning.

It is also strange that even Israeli ministers have openly admitted that they want to destroy the whole of Gaza. There are also videos of Israeli soldiers celebrating and singing: "There are no civilians in Gaza" Critics see this as genocidal intent.

I also find the behavior of the USA very bizarre. On the one hand they claim how sorry they are for Gaza and that Israel is overdoing it, but it is the US that continuously sends a lot of weapons to Israel and it was the US that vetoed a ceasefire in Gaza three times. In response to Biden stating Israel's actions were "over the top," the EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell stated, "If you believe that too many people are being killed, maybe you should provide less arms in order to prevent so many people being killed."

I also find it strange how Egypt is criticized in the Western media for not taking in refugees. A better question would be why Israel doesn't take in the refugees? Why can't the civilians of Gaza seek protection on Israeli territory? Why does it have to be Egypt?

In the Gaza Strip there are about 2.4 million people.

View attachment 89557View attachment 89558

I don't know who created Hamas, but this conflict has been going on for many decades now. The U.S. and U.K. supported the creation of the nation-state of Israel, and that became a done deal in the eyes of the West. The original perception I was taught growing up was that the U.S. relationship with Israel was analogous to a marriage - "for better or worse." The bottom line was that the U.S. had to stick by and support Israel no matter what. The perception was that they're a tiny country surrounded by much larger neighbors who were hostile and wanted to destroy them. Plus, their neighbors were supported by the Soviet Union, which put the situation in the context of the global Cold War which dominated much of the second-half of the 20th century.

Strictly speaking, as had been the case in some previous wars, the citizens of Jordan, Egypt, and Syria who had been residents in territories which fell under Israeli occupation should have had their status more coherently defined. The status of the territories also should have been more coherently defined. Because the Powers That Be in this world can't seem to come up with any lasting diplomatic solution, it's turned into a permanent impasse, and the current situation is a consequence of this.

Another complication in the mix has been the West's problematic relationships with the various oil-producing countries in the general region.

It also seems evident that there have been multiple countries and religious factions which apparently have some sort of stake in wanting control of that particular piece of real estate in the Eastern Mediterranean, so there could be any number of potential suspects as to "who created Hamas."

 

[Mock Turtle]

It is clear that the Western media spread aggressive anti-Palestinian propaganda during the attack. Pictures and videos of Hamas victims were posted, it was claimed that babies were beheaded and burned, etc. and the name "the Palestinians" was always mentioned. There was a clear attempt to discredit the entire people of Gaza in order to justify the bombing of Gaza.

All the dead were obviously given euthanasia pills to make sure they didn't suffer in any way, and many of course were killed by Hamas operatives by sheer accident. And all the money donated to Gaza by Palestinian supporters never a bit went to Hamas. This is the truth I declare!

<Sarcasm/>

 

[Revoltingest]

There's an easy solution. The people of Gaza return the hostages being held, and turn over the criminals kidnappers who took them. Israel will leave. We should all advocate for that.

Before Hamas attacked & took the hostages, Israel
had increased the killing of Palestinians to highest
levels in a decade. Settlers continued with impunity
to attack & drive away Palestinians. Israel continued
policies to keep Palestinians on the verge of financial
collapse (per Wikileaks).
So returning to the pre-2023 status quo would
still lead to creation of Hamas or such ilk.

 

[metis]

Hamas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Balthazzar]

There's a very large anti-Zionist movement at the moment in the states and apparently quite a few other territories. There's also been quite a lot of hostility shown against the U.S in the last several decades. Who created Hamas? Thier leaders. The tension between Palestine and Israel has been long standing, and I'm fairly certain Palestinians would rather endure the attacks than take refuge in Israel. Egypt has reasons for denying refugees I'm sure, although I have no idea what they might be. It's just plain nasty in that region and the hostilities aren't isolated to just Palestine and Israel.

 

[Wirey]

Before Hamas attacked & took the hostages, Israel
had increased the killing of Palestinians to highest
levels in a decade. Settlers continued with impunity
to attack drive away Palestinians. Israel continued
policies to keep Palestinians on the verge of financial
collapse (per Wikileaks).
So returning to the pre-2023 status quo would
still lead to creation of Hamas or such ilk.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, but to excuse attacks on civilians (on either side) by saying "They do it, too!" isn't really a solution. If every member of Hamas laid down their arms, the war would end. Strife and misery, heck yes, but no war. If the Israelis laid down their arms there would be a large pile of dead Jews. This is not a choice between equal outcomes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Nothing happens in a vacuum, but to excuse attacks on civilians (on either side) by saying "They do it, too!" isn't really a solution.

I don't see how that admonition applies.
It's not a "they do it too situation".
Nay, Israel's many decades of theft, brutality,
oppression, killing, & apartheid are entirely
responsible for the existence of Hamas.
Of course Hamas is bad. Not in dispute.

If every member of Hamas laid down their arms, the war would end. Strife and misery, heck yes, but no war.

Right or wrong, brutally oppressed & attacked
people are likely to violently resist / rebel.
This is an expected consequence.

If the Israelis laid down their arms there would be a large pile of dead Jews.

Zionists do so love to repeatedly proffer that false
dilemma fallacy as justification for apartheid & genocide.
More reasonable measures are available....
- Conducting their "war" without using sexual humiliation,
starvation, mass murder of civilians, indiscriminate bombing,
executing civilians, & denial of basics, eg, utilities, fuel,
medicine.
- Treating Palestinians with justice, eg, no imprisonment
without trial, ending torture, honoring international law.
- Allowing Palestinians to prosper financially.
- Easing highly restrictive gun control upon civilian
Israelis so they could defend themselves against
such conventional attacks.

 

[Yerda]

As it is, I don't care who created Hamas. They need to go. We can (and should) criticise Israel's actions, but we can't reasonably expect any sovereign state to abide terrorists on their doorstep with the aim of killing its people.

There's an easy solution. The people of Gaza return the hostages being held, and turn over the criminals kidnappers who took them. Israel will leave. We should all advocate for that.

In my very uninformed opinion, this has to be the first step, or part of the first step, to peace.

 

[Revoltingest]

As it is, I don't care who created Hamas. They need to go.

The creator of Hamas needs
to end policies that create
such organizations.

 

[icehorse]

I don't know who created Hamas, but this conflict has been going on for many decades now. The U.S. and U.K. supported the creation of the nation-state of Israel, and that became a done deal in the eyes of the West. The original perception I was taught growing up was that the U.S. relationship with Israel was analogous to a marriage - "for better or worse." The bottom line was that the U.S. had to stick by and support Israel no matter what. The perception was that they're a tiny country surrounded by much larger neighbors who were hostile and wanted to destroy them. Plus, their neighbors were supported by the Soviet Union, which put the situation in the context of the global Cold War which dominated much of the second-half of the 20th century.

Strictly speaking, as had been the case in some previous wars, the citizens of Jordan, Egypt, and Syria who had been residents in territories which fell under Israeli occupation should have had their status more coherently defined. The status of the territories also should have been more coherently defined. Because the Powers That Be in this world can't seem to come up with any lasting diplomatic solution, it's turned into a permanent impasse, and the current situation is a consequence of this.

Another complication in the mix has been the West's problematic relationships with the various oil-producing countries in the general region.

It also seems evident that there have been multiple countries and religious factions which apparently have some sort of stake in wanting control of that particular piece of real estate in the Eastern Mediterranean, so there could be any number of potential suspects as to "who created Hamas."

Just to clarify and provide a broader context, after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman empire, a large number of new nations were created. IMO that process was severely flawed. And some groups of people sort of won the land grab lottery and some groups got screwed. One of the groups that did well was the Palestinians who got Jordan, which is huge compared to Israel. And as far as I know, Israel was the only newly created country that wasn't Muslim majority.

For reasons I don't understand, we don't see anywhere near the public outcry for all the other groups that got screwed 100 years ago; e.g. the Kurds, the Coptics, the Yazidis, and others.

Large parts of what is now Jordan are ancient, traditional homelands of what are now called Palestinians.

 

[Spice]

Here's a brief 25 year history to show when they came to be, and how Hamas gained power:

1981: Israel escalates establishment of settlements on Palestinian territory. Egyptian President Anwar al-Sadat is assassinated.

1982: In response to terrorist attacks across Lebanon’s border, Israeli troops move into Lebanon, seeking to destroy PLO forces there. The militant Lebanese organization known as Hezbollah is established. Subsequent actions by the Israelis in Lebanon draw international criticism.

1985: Israel partially removes its forces from Lebanon.

1987: A Palestinian intifada (uprising) erupts, and Israel responds to the violence with harsh reprisals. The militant Palestinian organization known as Hamas is established.

1988: Jordan cedes its rights in the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the PLO. PLO head Yasir Arafat acknowledges Israel’s right to exist and renounces violence. The U.S. and the PLO initiate dialogue.

1991: The Persian Gulf War ejects Iraqi forces that have invaded Kuwait. Many Palestinian exiles move to Jordan. A Middle East peace conference, focusing on Arab-Israeli relations, is convened in Madrid.

1993: Israel and the PLO conclude a peace agreement in Oslo with mutual recognition and a five-year plan to resolve all remaining differences. Militant Palestinians and right-wing Israelis begin attempts to undermine the agreement.

1994: The Palestinian National Authority is established. Israel and Jordan sign a comprehensive peace agreement.

1995: Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated by an Israeli right-wing religious fanatic. This setback to the peace process is exacerbated by violent attacks from Palestinian groups opposed to the Oslo Agreement.

1996: Palestinians elect Yasir Arafat as president and elect the members of a legislative council. Israelis return the Likud Party to power, which stalls the Oslo process.

1998: The Wye River Memorandum is issued after talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians, under U.S. auspices. An airport is opened in Gaza, with flights to Arab nations.

2000: Israeli forces are withdrawn from Lebanon except for a disputed area, Shebaa Farms. Peace negotiations at Camp David break down. Ariel Sharon visits the Temple Mount and a second intifada is launched, more violent than the first.

2001: Ariel Sharon is elected prime minister of Israel, committed to rejection of the Oslo peace agreement and an emphasis on national security. The Gaza airport runway is bulldozed.

2002: An Arab League summit meeting endorses a Saudi peace plan based on U.N. Resolutions 242 and 338. Suicide bombings provoke strong Israeli response. Sharon blames Arafat for the violence and confines him in his Ramallah office. Israel begins building a separation barrier within the West Bank.

2003: The Quartet Group (the United States, United Nations, European Union, and Russia) agree on a “road map for peace.” Palestinians pledge full support, but Israel rejects key points. Violence continues, and the security barrier in the West Bank draws international criticism for undermining the peace process. An unofficial peace agreement negotiated by Israelis and Palestinians is released with extensive international support as the Geneva Initiative.

2004: Yasir Arafat dies.

2005: Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) is elected president of the Palestinian National Authority. Israel unilaterally evacuates its settlements from the Gaza Strip and four from the West Bank.


January 2006: Ariel Sharon suffers a massive stroke. Palestinians elect a new government, with Hamas winning a small plurality of votes but a majority of parliamentary seats. Israel and the United States isolate Palestine, cutting off funds.

March–August 2006: Ehud Olmert becomes Israel’s prime minister, promising that the dividing wall will, in effect, be the new Israeli–West Bank border. Hamas and Hezbollah militants capture Israeli soldiers, and Israeli forces attack Gaza and Lebanon. Hezbollah missiles strike northern Israel. The United Nations approves Resolution 1701, establishing a fragile cease-fire.

And to quote Kurt Vonnegut in Slaughterhouse Five: "And so it goes."

 

[Yerda]

The creator of Hamas needs
to end policies that create
such organizations.

Ok. The way I see it is if you want to stop terrorism you have to stop participating in it. I don't think we see a rise of militant Islamic groups in Palestine without the great crimes inflicted against the people there by Israel. I also don't think we see an end to the violence until the militants are driven out. It's all fecked.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ok. The way I see it is if you want to stop terrorism you have to stop participating in it.

Makes sense.
The question then arises, how to inspire
people to not commit terrorism.
It's analogous to people rioting about
police brutality...what motivates them?
What can be changed to end that motive?

I don't think we see a rise of militant Islamic groups in Palestine without the great crimes inflicted against the people there by Israel. I also don't think we see an end to the violence until the militants are driven out. It's all fecked.

The act of driving out the militants would
require more oppression & civil rights
violations....which would inspire more
militancy. Not a formula for success.

 

[libre]

The people of Gaza return the hostages being held

Interesting that you've placed responsibility to resolve this issue on the stateless Palestinian people experiencing famine and a brutal offensive, rather than the actual military or terrorists doing the fighting.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Interesting that you've placed responsibility to resolve this issue on the stateless Palestinian people experiencing famine and a brutal offensive, rather than the actual military or terrorists doing the fighting.

^ this

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Just to clarify and provide a broader context, after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman empire, a large number of new nations were created. IMO that process was severely flawed. And some groups of people sort of won the land grab lottery and some groups got screwed. One of the groups that did well was the Palestinians who got Jordan, which is huge compared to Israel. ...

The Palestinians who got Jordan?

Perhaps before deigning "to clarify and provide a broader context," you might wish to give some thought to the difference between

1. the fictive Palestinian State of Jordan, and
2. the very real Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.