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Who gave Jesus all authority in Heaven and Earth?

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, God Jehovah will take back the Earth.

Then someday, someone might wonder why God gave it to humankind in the first place and then why was is alright for The Holy One to take it back?

Might the circle of the Earth really have nothing to do with the shape of it? Isaiah 40:22?

Might Isaiah 40:22 be somehow related to Ecclesiastes 1:9-10?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Psalms 83 : 18 May people know that you whose name is Jehovah
You know, it's interesting: in Canaanite lore, Yaw/Yam/Yahweh is the bad guy and Baal is the loving god who protects humanity. Plus, El was the Father of them both.

3) And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.
That's probably because Baal killed Yahweh, the evil sea god, by that point. I guess He didn't want Baal to know He was back?

(These are gods, so death can be kind of a revolving door for them.)

'I kept watching until thrones were set in place and the Ancient of days sat down. His clothing was white like snow, and the hair of his head was like clean wool. His throne was flames of fire; its wheels were a burning fire.10) A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him. A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The Court took its seat, and books were opened. 1
In Canaanite lore, it's Baal who won the right to have a palace. Yahweh was first made King but Baal usurped Him because He was killing off too many people or something.

The scriptures interpret themselves.
What I write comes from God. It is true because otherwise I'd be lying. There is no need for personal interpretation of my words.

See how easy it is? Anyone can do it! That's why there are lots of religions and denominations/sects of religions!

Notice right after that he says besides me there is no God. He is the first and last God there will ever be he has no end, and he had no beginning he always was.
Except the lore doesn't show that in pre-Judaism
A prophesy states things that will happen at a future date.
I was under the impression prophecy was more than just fortune-telling.

My eyes were opened and Jehovah literally took over, had me read the Bible three times in about 7 months, and now he truly shows me whats right and wrong through holy spirit.
If the Holy Spirit told you the Truth, why did you need to read a book?

That is unbiblical.
Actually, it kind of depends on the author. One need not be divine to be a messiah, per Judaism. You can thank Paul and "John" for the blasphemy.

So, are you saying it is not the truth that God gave Earth to humankind?
Genesis reads more like we were hired to be the earth's maintenance crew. Earth doesn't exist for us so much as we exist for it.

Yes, the children in the school quote the men that teach the doctrine to them, the men and the rest of the congregation do the same thing. What I say comes from Jehovah God through Holy Spirit and is no lie.
You know what'd be more impressive? You having no experience with the bible whatsoever and saying things that "come from the Holy Spirit". Otherwise, you're just quoting a text.

Praying to Jehovah in Jesus name unlocks the power of the Kingdom.
I found the keys to God's and Satan's offices. They weren't too thrilled, but hey, shouldn't leave them lying around, right? When I want to go somewhere in either realm, I just do. :p
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
So, are you saying it is not the truth that God gave Earth to humankind? In that God has come to be our savior, God took it back. Or, is Jesus actually a human (not an angel or God) and so the Earth still remains a gift to humankind from God?

Before I can respond properly to what you are saying can you please post the verses that you are paraphrasing? Since the bible is the common ground upon which we must debate and also the ultimate authority it is imperative that we first establish what the bible is saying. So I need you to tell me what verse it is you are using since I do not know what you referring to off the top of my head.

Even though I think you are giving an incorrect interpretation, I can show you how that even if your interpretation is correct it still is no problem. If you read mainstream commentaries, the writings of the church fathers, or even the conclusions of the Catholic councils (particularly Nicaea) you will find that the consensus is that Christ was 100% human and 100% divine. So given this your unusual point about the dominion over earth would still be satisfied. However I still think your interpretation is inaccurate.

BTW, just out of curiosity what in the world did you use those pictures to demonstrate? I cannot understand the statements you made in that post.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Before I can respond properly to what you are saying can you please post the verses that you are paraphrasing? Since the bible is the common ground upon which we must debate and also the ultimate authority
Uhha. I think anyone who calls the bible the "ultimate authority" is not worth debating with especially those who call it thus but don't know what it says. Psalms 115:16 The highest heavens belong to Jehovah, but the earth he has given to mankind. Psalms 8:6 Jeremiah 27:5 But, you are probably cute so.......carry on.......

So you know, I call The Holy Spirit the final authority. Granted, some scripture was written under its influence, but scripture is just words. The Holy Spirit is real wisdom and power.

OK? Should I read the rest of the post?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Before I can respond properly to what you are saying can you please post the verses that you are paraphrasing? Since the bible is the common ground upon which we must debate and also the ultimate authority it is imperative that we first establish what the bible is saying. So I need you to tell me what verse it is you are using since I do not know what you referring to off the top of my head.

Even though I think you are giving an incorrect interpretation, I can show you how that even if your interpretation is correct it still is no problem. If you read mainstream commentaries, the writings of the church fathers, or even the conclusions of the Catholic councils (particularly Nicaea) you will find that the consensus is that Christ was 100% human and 100% divine. So given this your unusual point about the dominion over earth would still be satisfied. However I still think your interpretation is inaccurate.

BTW, just out of curiosity what in the world did you use those pictures to demonstrate? I cannot understand the statements you made in that post.
The pictures demonstrate that the World is not in subjection to The Lord.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Even though I think you are giving an incorrect interpretation, I can show you how that even if your interpretation is correct it still is no problem. If you read mainstream commentaries, the writings of the church fathers, or even the conclusions of the Catholic councils (particularly Nicaea) you will find that the consensus is that Christ was 100% human and 100% divine. So given this your unusual point about the dominion over earth would still be satisfied. However I still think your interpretation is inaccurate.
You think?

Have you ever seen what humans can do physically? Some of what they can do looks like nothing but magic, but they really can do those incredible stunts.

Jesus is not a physical man, but a spiritual one. Seeing what humans can do and I am not one bit surprised that someone can behave in a way that people call "divine". Actually, being perfect spiritually is a whole lot easier than being perfect physically. Jesus is a perfectly spiritual man for YHVH. Is that divine? I think so! I am not arguing that Jesus is not divine.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But.....you may argue that I am not divine. OK?

I was close to getting a perfect Hearts game. See the picture?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I am going to look at this logically.
Ok

The Earth is going just one place.
Agreed

There is no Earth leader, so Earth will definitely fail. It just will. Matthew 15:14
Stating there is no Earth leader is one bizarre point. However both the Bible and I agree that the Earth will fail. In my opinion the Bible predicts what looks very much like a nuclear war precipitated by a Muslim attack against Israel. But it does not matter how it comes about the Bible spells out an apocalypse which seems to be a failure of humanities dominion over the Earth. So I agree but would have used different language than you have to state it.

Was the Earth given to humankind by God? I rest on the fact it was.
I agree that man was given dominion over Earth but that can mean different things. First I need the verse you are paraphrasing, then I need a more detailed interpretation of it by you before I can agree or not.

Earth needs a leader. Wise people choose Jesus Christ because he is faithful and true.
This I do not agree with in totality. Earth only needs a leader if God's plan stipulates that need. Since God's plan (or at least his revelation) states that humanity will fall then wishing Earth had a perfect leader is meaningless since our dominion over Earth will fail according to biblical prophecy. You are here smuggling in your own goals and then drawing conclusion based on what you think should happen instead of what God said will happen.

Where Earth goes belongs to Earth's leader.
Prior to Christ reigning over Earth there never has been nor will there ever be a single leader over Earth.

Where it goes will prove its leader and where it goes is to whom it belongs.
I do not see where your going here. If God exists and if what he says is true there is no hope what so ever that any mortal human will lead the earth to some great destiny.

A. There has never been a leader over all of the Earth.
B. Other than Christ no mortal human will ever lead the Earth to perfection.
C. Even if some human came along and manage to rule the entire planet, and even if he could do so to perfection he would die and an imperfect leader or leaders would come along and ruin the perfection the former leader created.
D. The only way a leader can come along and rule the entire planet and do so to perfection would only be possible if that leader was absolutely perfect (divine) and if that leader could rule forever (again be divine). That means Christ would have to be divine, which is what you deny.

So your very strange attempt at logic does not with stand critical analysis. Your argument is what I like to call metaphysical speculation or Gnosticism.

Does it belong to God? Psalms 115:16 Is Psalm 115:16 correct or incorrect?
The bible lays out a complex system of hierarchy which you do not employ in your arguments. I cannot figure out what your argument is. I can only examine your fragmentary statements. Of course God the father holds sovereignty over everything and every power, he gave Christ sovereignty over virtually everything (they are co-habitants of the throne of God), the Holy Spirit also holds great sovereignty, Satan is even called the prince of this Earth but does not hold complete sovereignty, and then humans and Angels hold some measure of authority over creation. So you can see that your simplistic statements as to fact are not complex enough to actually represent reality. Plus I do not see the conclusion your are trying to make using your strange premises.

If Jesus is God then where Earth goes it totally up to God.
I am not complaining (I myself am a terrible speller and type way to fast to be accurate) but is English your primary language? Some of your points like the one above are hard to follow. Can you clarify?

If Jesus is a man, then where Earth goes will prove humankind.

Remember what some wise men believed and wrote. The Earth was given Adam to have it in subjection. If God is the savior then the Earth is in subjection to God and we know that isn't true.

But, you guys say it is true.
Savage wind. You make so many points that depend on your claims about God's commission of our dominion over Earth that we really need to get the verse then examine it until we agree on what it says using proper hermeneutics and exegesis. I do not want to try and guess what verses it is that you are using. Please post the exact verse you are basing your claims upon. You have given a few verse numbers but I want the exact verse you base your claims about our God given sovereignty on.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Stating there is no Earth leader is one bizarre point.

Prior to Christ reigning over Earth there never has been nor will there ever be a single leader over Earth.
Welcome to The Bizzare Club. Are you cute? LOL
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Adam was created in God's image to have the Earth in subjection.
The Earth is not in subjection to the image of God.
It is even written Psalms 115:16 Young's Literal Translation
The heavens -- the heavens are Jehovah's, And the earth He hath given to sons of men

What the ell does that mean to you?

I realize the truth that God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of every man and blah, blah, blah, but the mind is not in subjection to them. The mind is subject to the ruler of the world. What is it?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you weren't so cute 1robin, like a little bid, I would probably ignore that you have said I seem to believe in a human leader of Earth other than Jesus Christ.

I don't believe that. Do I really look that stupid?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK every mean and nasty man person. English is my only language, God help me!
When I had just learned to speak, my mother left my father, packed up her crystal (thanks for being funny mommy) and went to Sweden on a boat with boxes of dishes and **** and four kids. So blame my bad language skills on Sweden*. OK?

*My brain is working.....I can feel it. Is Swedish better? Or, maybe, it should be written thusly:

So, blame my bad language skills on the Swedish language. What do you thinK?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yes I do because the children and the rest of the congregation only repeat the things taught by men. The only one who gives wisdom and knowledge is Jehovah.
What you stated is unbiblical. God's word clearly states:

1. Here is an entire dissertation on 2 Peter 1:21 by one of if not the greatest philosophical theologians alive today which points out emphatically that God commissions men to speak on his behalf and demands that we must place trust in such men. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/men-moved-by-the-holy-spirit-spoke-from-god Happy reading.
2. Not only has God commissioned mere mortal humans to speak for him, his own divine son stated:
New International Version
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
3. Plus he gave us Christ's own words.

So it is easy to see that we have all manner of sources given to us in order to know God's actions, will, and predictions. Christ, the Holy Spirit, and even men commissioned by God to teach in his name. So it follows that countless Sunday school students can easily learn divine truth.

Proverbs 2 : 6 states. (6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; From his mouth come knowledge and discernment. Jehovah God is the Father I'll show you a couple scriptures proving that. This is where he first introduced himself using his name when speaking with Moses. Exodus 6 : 2 states ( 2 Then God said to Moses: “I am Jehovah. 3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them. Psalms 83 : 18 states 18) May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah,You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
Of course the Father can impart Holy truths, I said nothing to contradict this simplistic truth. However God himself does not limit himself as the only source from which divine truths may be learned. However maybe your trying so hard to establish that God the father is the ultimate source of divine truth and that other sources are merely vessels or agents, but even if that is the actual case it does not in any way lead to the claim that Sunday school students do not receive God's truth through a human or spiritual source. So your merely stating a possible distinction that makes no practical difference.

Jesus is the son of Jehovah God. John 11 : 4 states 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said: “This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” 1 john 4:15 states 15) Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God. The story of the bible is about a Father and Son. A Father who always was who created a Son with his hands and that Father and Son created everything that is. Jehovah ( Father ) being the Architect and Jesus ( Son ) being the Master Builder. You have to Acknowledge the father, Pray to Jehovah and end your prayer in the name of Jesus and you will unlock the power of the Kingdom. Pray for an abundance in wisdom and understanding and for a great hunger for his word. Continuously do this without doubting and you'll be filled.
I never said anything that conflicts with Christ being God's son. Your pointing out that which I never denied does not make a relevant argument. I have no idea what your driving at nor how it applies to my original argument or claim.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Actually, it kind of depends on the author. One need not be divine to be a messiah, per Judaism. You can thank Paul and "John" for the blasphemy.


I am a little lost here considering your response so let me clarify a bit.

1. My original point here is that Jesus is not 1/3 of a divine being. He is a 100% divine and while on earth also 100% human, he is also one person out of three which makes up the God head (being). One being composed of three persons. That claim is the conclusion of most mainstream biblical scholars and was even the conclusion of 98% of the Bishops at the council of Nicaea. That claim comes from scriptures (and I mean a lot of scriptures) that can be taken from each Biblical author individually if desired. IOW I could use each individual authors work alone to easily show that Jesus is divine.

2. None of the scriptures I would use to show that Jesus is divine come from passages about the messiah. So whether or not the term messiah mandates a divine being or not is not the issue. I would base my argumentation upon scriptures talking about how Christ has exist for eternity past, that he forgave sins in his own name, that in him all things were made, and his unique claims to son ship. I would couple those teachings and countless more with God's raising Jesus from the dead thereby putting his stamp of approval on Christ's claims because the father would not have raised Christ nor could he have been the sacrificial lamb of God, if he had lied and blasphemed.

3. I do not in any way agree that Paul or John blasphemed and if you wish to know all the reasons why I think they taught divine truth then please ask.

Now that I have clarified my claims and have addressed yours maybe we can recalibrate the discussion.
 
Before I can respond properly to what you are saying can you please post the verses that you are paraphrasing? Since the bible is the common ground upon which we must debate and also the ultimate authority it is imperative that we first establish what the bible is saying. So I need you to tell me what verse it is you are using since I do not know what you referring to off the top of my head.

Even though I think you are giving an incorrect interpretation, I can show you how that even if your interpretation is correct it still is no problem. If you read mainstream commentaries, the writings of the church fathers, or even the conclusions of the Catholic councils (particularly Nicaea) you will find that the consensus is that Christ was 100% human and 100% divine. So given this your unusual point about the dominion over earth would still be satisfied. However I still think your interpretation is inaccurate.

BTW, just out of curiosity what in the world did you use those pictures to demonstrate? I cannot understand the statements you made in that post.
What you stated is unbiblical. God's word clearly states:

1. Here is an entire dissertation on 2 Peter 1:21 by one of if not the greatest philosophical theologians alive today which points out emphatically that God commissions men to speak on his behalf and demands that we must place trust in such men. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/men-moved-by-the-holy-spirit-spoke-from-god Happy reading.
2. Not only has God commissioned mere mortal humans to speak for him, his own divine son stated:
New International Version
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
3. Plus he gave us Christ's own words.

So it is easy to see that we have all manner of sources given to us in order to know God's actions, will, and predictions. Christ, the Holy Spirit, and even men commissioned by God to teach in his name. So it follows that countless Sunday school students can easily learn divine truth.

Of course the Father can impart Holy truths, I said nothing to contradict this simplistic truth. However God himself does not limit himself as the only source from which divine truths may be learned. However maybe your trying so hard to establish that God the father is the ultimate source of divine truth and that other sources are merely vessels or agents, but even if that is the actual case it does not in any way lead to the claim that Sunday school students do not receive God's truth through a human or spiritual source. So your merely stating a possible distinction that makes no practical difference.

I never said anything that conflicts with Christ being God's son. Your pointing out that which I never denied does not make a relevant argument. I have no idea what your driving at nor how it applies to my original argument or claim.


Listen i'm not disagreeing with you that Jehovah God passes on the truth through Holy spirit to mortal men. I'm saying that the sheep are suppose to be confirming the truth not just following what someone else is saying. Paul reasoned from the scriptures he didn't just tell people to listen to him. Acts 17 : 1 - 4 ( 1 They now traveled through Am·phipʹo·lis and Ap·ol·loʹni·a and came to Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, saying: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you.” 4 As a result, some of them became believers and associated themselves with Paul and Silas, and so did a great multitude of the Greeks who worshiped God, along with quite a few of the principal women.) You can't call yourself a Christian and not study the Bible just like a person cannot call themselves a Doctor without proper training. What i was trying to show you was that Jehovah And Jesus are a Father and Son not some trinity. They are two separate entities and the Holy Spirit is the tutor that teaches us all things. The reason why your suppose to be baptized in the name of the Father Son And Holy spirit is because of recognition, because the Father was the first to act on our behalf by sending his son down here on orders to walk the earth without sin and serving himself up as a sacrifice for our lives among other things. John 3 : 16 states (16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.) John 8 : 42 states (42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. ( You have two scriptures here telling you that Jehovah sent Jesus not Jehovah God coming in the flesh as Jesus that's the teaching of the Antichrist. ) The Son is recognized not only for what I already wrote but for obeying the Father all the way until death.
Philippians 2 : 5 - 8 states ( 5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man,* he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake.) Gods form mentioned in verse 6 merely is talking about a spiritual being, and in the same verse it says he didn't consider himself equal to God. The Holy Spirit gets it's recognition because it's the promised helper that Jesus said the Father would send back in his name to teach them all things and bring back to mind all the things he taught them. John 14 : 26 states ( . 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.)
Anyone who believes that God came in the flesh as Jesus is the Antichrist.
1 John 4 : 2 - 3 states.( 2 This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God. 3 But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the Antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
When I say they have it together more than any one else is being on the right path. The main thing that they do is acknowledge who God is and that's Jehovah with Jesus being his Son. Praying to Jehovah in Jesus name unlocks the power of the Kingdom.

Bad news for republicans.

Ciao

- viole
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Uhha. I think anyone who calls the bible the "ultimate authority" is not worth debating with especially those who call it thus but don't know what it says. Psalms 115:16 The highest heavens belong to Jehovah, but the earth he has given to mankind. Psalms 8:6 Jeremiah 27:5 But, you are probably cute so.......carry on.......
My cuteness is debatable but divine revelation isn't. Scripture is known in Greek as theopneustos which means God breathed. As the bible makes emphatically plain scripture is the work of the Holy Spirit: New International Version
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

You can't (or at least shouldn't) simultaneously posit scripture and condemn the bible in a debate or in your personal life.

Since Christ's apostle Paul said:

New International Version
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!

Then even the Holy Spirit must attest to the scriptures or be found false.

The bible is the judge of anything you claim was revealed to you, and what you have contradicts the bible plus you deny the authorities of the scriptures found in the same book you quote from. Your position appears self contradictory.

You said that it is not worth debating someone who believes the book you yourself quote from is the authority. Since I hold to that exact position then you should not want to debate me regardless of how cute I may be.

So let me know what you want to do before I spend a lot of time responding to your other posts.



So you know, I call The Holy Spirit the final authority. Granted, some scripture was written under its influence, but scripture is just words. The Holy Spirit is real wisdom and power.
Since the Holy Spirit was sent from God for the specific purpose of revealing the scriptures and to confirm them you being self contradictory. You need to get your world view to be consistent with it's self before you make arguments from it. I hope you can do so.

OK? Should I read the rest of the post?
What?
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
The pictures demonstrate that the World is not in subjection to The Lord.
Of course it isn't as pointed out by:

New International Version
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

So if you let all the scriptures speak for themselves they supply an exact description of reality.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member


You can't (or at least shouldn't) simultaneously posit scripture and condemn the bible in a debate or in your personal life.
See how you are sloppy with your words? It is OK and human. Humans wrote what they believed God said. According to you, they never made one mistake like you make mistakes.
One mistake you have made is that you heard my opinion was that the World could be led to freedom by a human leader, other than Jesus Christ. I have never said that and I have never even once thought it.

Another mistake you make is to say that I condemn the Bible because I do not believe every single word in it was and is God breathed. I don't condemn the Bible. I love it.
 
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