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Who has the burden of proof?

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The way I see it the one making the claim has the burden of proof. So if a theist makes the claim that God exists, the burden of proof is on them to support that proposition.

However the proposition that no God exists (which I think goes beyond disbelief until proportional evidence to the claim is given) also seems like a positive claim as well and needs justification/proof too even though the claim is negative.

So who has the burden of proof, one or the other, both, neither?

It depends.

If one says that there is (definitely) no God then I think she should prove it. It could be that it is easy to prove, depending on the definition of God.

On the other hand, if one claims to know that there is no God, then she does not need to prove it. The others have to falsify her claim so that she can revise her knowledge,

After all, we know a lot of things. We know, for instance, that babies do not come from storks and it would be silly to require proof that there are no storks whatsoever delivering babies, even if that is a logical possibility and we have not analyzed the behavior of each stork that ever flew on earth.

The same, basically, for everything we know from science.

Ciao

- viole
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
The majority of the world believes in God.

The Atheists' is the extraordinary claim; so the burden of proof is on the Atheist.

Regards


There is no logic in this reply.


Popularity has never dictated what is, or is not correct. :facepalm:



Our burden has been met. Man has factually created deities, and you agree, and you don't follow or believe in any created deity out of thousands that were factually created. less one. :facepalm:
 

Maldini

Active Member
Who has the burden of proof?


It is Atheists weird and unnatural claim that God does not exist; so ethically, morally and spiritually the burden of proof is on them.

Regards

Post of the millennium.

I would call this bigger than the revelations all prophets have had combined.

Unnatural is being sure of something that can't be traced in any logical way,
calling something that is not there just something that's not there is technically natural.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
It depends.

If one says that there is (definitely) no God then I think she should prove it. It could be that it is easy to prove, depending on the definition of God.
Step back for a moment and think about how this might be done. If you do you will see that it is quite impossible to prove and anything does not exist, you are constantly faced with the issue of having to look over the next hill and under the next rock and the supply of hills and rocks is infinite.
The majority of the world believes in God.

The Atheists' is the extraordinary claim; so the burden of proof is on the Atheist.

Regards
No ... the atheist's claim is quite ordinary, it is clearly the religionist whose claim is EXTRA-ordinary.
Who has the burden of proof?


It is Atheists weird and unnatural claim that God does not exist; so ethically, morally and spiritually the burden of proof is on them.

Regards
Similarly, the athiest's claim is quite natural, it is the religionist whose claim is UN-natural (SUPER-natural).
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
There's nothing contradictory about it. But I am saying it is an affirmative assertion despite involving a negative clause.

And yet there is no negative clause implied in the assertion “God exists”! It’s a claim to the truth. And despite the grammatical form of “God does not exist” it is only a conclusion that can never be fully justified, since it is logically impossible to demonstrate the actual non-existence of that object (although propositions can be demonstrated as false), whereas if God does exist then logically it must be possible to demonstrate his existence. That is the crucial distinction. Therefore “God exists” bears the burden of proof.

In other words, the idea that God exists must itself exist in order for the reverse claim to be possible? And?

If you were to present to me a wordview that you'd like me to adopt, and an essential aspect of that wordview is strong atheism; I'd certainly be justified in asking you to demonstrate that atheism.

Let me rephrase. If you are going to claim that strong atheism should be the rational default, why should you be except from the same demand as if I were to insist that theism be the default?

That’s not my argument. Atheism is founded on facts, in other words inferences from the experiential world that can be true or false, thus every experiential statement is therefore contingent, and it follows then that “God does not exist” is a contingent statement. The theist makes no such concessions to the experiential world but proposes that God transcends the world of experience, and therefore “God exists” is given supposedly as a truth statement.

But what makes you so sure that no one has not has had direct experience of the 'supernatural'. There is no evidence for the supernatural that will play into a modern, replicable framework of scientific reductionism, but tell that to the priest that cures blindness, exorcists who have encountered the demonic, visionaries who have had direct converse with religious figures.

I can't prove any of the above (that's not my point) but when you really start looking into these things more and more the idea that it's all fraud and fantasy is just not convincing. (even though there is much of that involved)

All you are referring to is subjective experience and a will to believe-as-faith. I’m talking about objective evidence, evidence upon which we can all agree, such as that that the sun rises in the morning and wanes in the evening, that water is composed of two molecules of hydrogen and one molecule of oxygen, that all living matter eventually degrades and dies; but even if we leave aside the properly scientific aspect there is still no objective evidence of miracles or the supernatural, for there is neither a body of facts nor any information that conveys to us knowledge of the supernatural other than on anecdotal or reported terms. And many of the experiences, as you acknowledge, have been spurious or recognised as having a psychological explanation.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
If I say, "I've seen a fairy on the back of a flying unicorn". You'd expect me to prove it, give you some evidence.
If I then stand there saying, "You prove I didn't see it", would you believe me? Or think that is a fair request?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Tlaloc, it's an old saw, but what about the "God hates amputees" construct. Prayer induced regrowth of a limb would be powerful evidence indeed, the absence of which rather put the lie to, "the priest that cures blindness, exorcists who have encountered the demonic, visionaries who have had direct converse with religious figures."
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Why should I care who has the 'burden of proof' as if I'm going to convince someone of something they currently don't want to believe in.

What I do care about is what my personal beliefs are as to the most reasonable understanding of the universe. I believe because my position is the most reasonable one I can form and don't claim to have what a disbeliever would accept as 'proof'.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Why should I care who has the 'burden of proof' as if I'm going to convince someone of something they currently don't want to believe in.

What I do care about is what my personal beliefs are as to the most reasonable understanding of the universe. I believe because my position is the most reasonable one I can form and don't claim to have what a disbeliever would accept as 'proof'.
George ... that is one piece of tortured logic.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Why should I care who has the 'burden of proof' as if I'm going to convince someone of something they currently don't want to believe in.

What I do care about is what my personal beliefs are as to the most reasonable understanding of the universe. I believe because my position is the most reasonable one I can form and don't claim to have what a disbeliever would accept as 'proof'.

It's good that you admit that your beliefs are empirically unsupportable.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
How did you twist that out of what I said? I was saying the evidence makes my position the most reasonable position to hold.

Yet you "don't claim to have what a disbeliever would accept as 'proof'." Although you may convince yourself that your position is reasonable to hold, this lack of empirical evidence which would suffice to convince a rational person of your beliefs, unfortunately, reveals your position as unreasonable in an objective sense.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
If I say, "I've seen a fairy on the back of a flying unicorn". You'd expect me to prove it, give you some evidence.
If I then stand there saying, "You prove I didn't see it", would you believe me? Or think that is a fair request?

This. It is never fair to request evidence of non-existence when simply supplying evidence of said existence would suffice and no debate would be required. If everyone had pictures and video of fairies and gods, people were rooming with them, they got jobs, nobody would say they don't exist. That you exist should be the one of the easiest things to convince people of. Existing leaves traces and fingerprints everywhere. Someone would find a pouch of lost fairy dust and start flying around.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Yet you "don't claim to have what a disbeliever would accept as 'proof'." Although you may convince yourself that your position is reasonable to hold, this lack of empirical evidence which would suffice to convince a rational person of your beliefs, unfortunately, reveals your position as unreasonable in an objective sense.

Do you understand this concept: There is enough evidence for me to believe something is highly likely but there is not enough evidence for me to prove it...
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Do you understand this concept: There is enough evidence for me to believe something is highly likely but there is not enough evidence for me to prove it...

Indeed, many people believe all sorts of things that are empirically unsupportable. Of course, if they want those beliefs to be considered rational, then they need to be able to support their claims using an empirical basis and evidence.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Do you understand this concept: There is enough evidence for me to believe something is highly likely but there is not enough evidence for me to prove it...

Indeed, many people believe all sorts of things that are empirically unsupportable. Of course, if they want those beliefs to be considered rational, then they need to be able to support their claims using an empirical basis and evidence.

The answer appears to be you don't understand the concept.
 
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