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Who has the burden of proof?
- Thread starter Delta-9
- Start date
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Because God is a non-interventionary God. He does not intervene on anything, if he did, free agency would go out of the window, and we would have far more amputees, because we can always grow another leg or arm, so people will take greater risks, become more complacent, thereby, potentially causing people around him to be brought into harms way. It would have a disastrous snowball effect. But most importantly, faith would turn into knowledge, and the whole plan of salvation would cease to exist, reverting us all back to our original state of being. Disembodied spirits/intelligences.
Not only that, you are suggesting that God should contravene the natural laws of the universe. That there should be no effect from a cause. That standing on a land mine would have no more effect on our bodies, other than the inconvenience of a hospital visit. Maybe fatalities should also be reversed by prayer, or abortions performed. Can you see how silly the argument is. Cause and effect is a natural law, defined by Sir Isaacs Newton. If that law is render useless, then the entire universe would implode as the effect would knock out all of the other laws in succession. Oh, God could do it, but he ain't that stupid.
The argument of amputees comes straight out of the "How Atheists can Debunk Religion" manual. It is another one of their standard arguments that simply does not hold water. It is telling that amongst all the reasons that one can consider why God does not heal amputees, you have chosen to accuse him of refusing to do it out of hatred for his creation, his spiritual children. The most extreme reason that one could contemplate. That suggests that you have fixed beliefs and biases that no amount of reasoning with you would ever change. We, theists, are wrong, at all cost, but you, atheists, are right for free. Not an intellectual stance to take IMO.
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ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Really? Because it sounds exactly the same to me. Can you provide me with a clear example of the above happening.
Please demonstrate that this has ever actually happened.
Then please provide the evidence of them so that I can give them an honest look. A single, grainy YouTube video of unknown origin is not sufficient.
And you're beyond naive if you seriously believe that the existence of supernatural healing abilities will be "ignored" by people for no good reason whatsoever. I'd love for their to be a cure for cancer or blindness, and for this cure to simply require deference to some form of higher being. I'd be overjoyed if such a thing exists - as would millions of people around the world, not to mention the millions of scientists and doctors who have devoted their lives to developing a cure for cancer or blindness. To suggest that all of these people just "ignore" such supposed miracles is not only naive, but an insult to the intelligent, honest and dedicated people of this world who work tirelessly and selflessly to help those in need - as well as the people who suffer from cancer or sight loss.
Give me one good reason why these abilities (either Gods or an individuals) have not or cannot be demonstrated under reasonable scientific conditions.
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Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
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You clearly hate belief in God and no amount of logic from us will change that.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
And yet, according to Tlalog, there are people today who are able to miraculously heal blindness on video. Maybe not at will, but if they're still able to do it - even only on rare occasions, this should absolutely be global news.
Your source is a "Paranormal Education and Research Charity". I'm not very likely to take their articles seriously.
Also, the most recent scientific studies of individuals with stigmata reached the conclusion that stigmata most likely results from one of many numbers of physical and mental anomalies, including hysteria, psychological disorders, anorexia, post-traumatic stress and unconscious self-mutilation.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/faculty/fessler/pubs/FesslerStigmata.pdf
http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_13_3_margnelli.pdf
Then, of course, there is always the problem that stigmata is actually historically incongruous, since Christ was most likely not hung on the cross by putting nails through his palms - but through his wrists.
The fact that you're willing to believe that an entire industry of people would be so utterly evil as to hold back a cancer cure (despite the fact that many of them and their families would be affected by cancer at some point in their lives) calls into question just how cynically you view humanity.
Firstly, do you have a source for this extract?
Secondly, I've had a brief look at Burzynski and the history of his clinic and it looks like there's actually no evidence to suggest that his treatment is any kind of "cure", and the scientific consensus does not believe it has any effect on cancer. Furthermore, Burzynski has failed to publish results from around 60 medical trials of his treatment from phase II, and scientists have yet to be able to reproduce the success Burzynski claimed his treatment to have following the publishing of the phase I trials.
Antineoplastons | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center
Doctor accused of selling false hope to families
The guy looks like a fraud who charges people thousands of dollars for an unproven treatment.
So why would God ever do any miracles ever? Wouldn't witnessing a miracle make faith into a fact? Isn't that the whole point of miracles? If faith is so important, then surely God shouldn't allow any miracles to be performed, ever.
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Because it is the wish of such beings to SUPPORT belief not COMPEL belief.
Beings that are that advanced that intercede in such affairs use discretion. Do you claim to know all the ramifications of a miracle everybody would be compelled to accept? It's effect on atheists? It's effect on believers of various schools of thought? A sudden and immediate change in philosophy? Effect on people dedicated to religious paths that don't accept miracles expect through their narrow belief system? Clearly it is not in the Will to do sudden dramatic things. In short, be careful what you ask for.
outhouse
Atheistically
Not true. I could be persuaded by evidence and logic.
outhouse
Atheistically
All factual evidence shows conscious thoughts originate from the the brain.
They can see questions and know the answers before the test subject does.
Add to that a soul is a mythological concept.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Why? What's the difference? If a God allows (or enables) miracles to happen, they ARE compelling belief. What's the problem with doing this on a larger scale and revealing the truth to the world? Why do these events only ever "happen" on isolated occasions with little to no corroboration or evidence that such miracles occurred? Why is it whenever someone brings up an example of miracles they always talk of curing incurable diseases or mass-visitations on a vast scale, but as soon as I start asking for scientific validation of what they're claiming suddenly God get colds feet and decides not to "compel" belief? That makes no sense.
That's completely absurd. Again, I mention the example above which have been used countless times in many debates - healing of terminal diseases and mass visitation. That is not "using discretion".
No. Why should I? What does that have to do with validating the truth claims of actual miracles?
That is also completely absurd. You're basically saying that it's better not to have any validation of a truth claim - a truth claim that would save countless lives and improve the living conditions of millions of people - than to have any kind of validation because some people MIGHT react badly.
So no, when it comes to claims like this being made, I will not "be careful what I ask for" when all I ask for is a reasonable demonstration of facts. When somebody makes the claim "this man used the power of God to heal a blind person" I'm absolutely going to call BS until they can demonstrate that that's what actually occurred. So far, I have received no evidence whatsoever.
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
The answer to all of your question is faith. We are here to live by faith. If God started to perform miracles willy nilly then we would all know that he lives so faith would no longer exist and the trial of our faith would cease to exist.
I do not believe that God performs miracles but that he authorises them. Not everything that appears to be a miracle is a miracle. Faith healing is exactly what it implies, the healing by faith. It is down to the faith of the healer and that of the receiver together that causes the healing by drawing on the powers of heaven. Faith can cure cancer but it is our faith that does most of the work. If you believe in it enough, and if all around you have that same faith, if it be Gods will then you will be cured. I have witnessed three terminally ill friend of mind beat it miraculously to the astonishment of all of us but in particular to his physicians. The internet is full of miraculous examples of modern day miracles. The Catholics keep strict records on them. The Mormons have books written by their leaders with documented evidence of supernatural cures. You just have to look in the right place. You will not find the truth in an article full of bigotry and lies.
Her is a few short stories to give you an idea of modern day miracles. Remember, God can not perform the miracle himself. He is perfect so cannot dwell with us, as is Jesus Christ. They are usually down to the Holy Ghost or our own faith. They are authorised by God through the name of Jesus Christ who has the Holy Priesthood after the order of the Son of God. Isn't it wonderful that there is no question in theology that cannot be logically and realistically answered. A very good reason to investigate God.
1. The Dog, The Chicken, and The Bomb
When David Newkirk, now a youth pastor at Church of the Open Door in Glendora, California, woke up in the middle of the night, he was still exhausted from a college basketball victory the day before.
"Twenty minutes after my head hit the pillow, I was catapulted out of the deepest sleep," he writes in the book. Along with his mother and sister, he was jerked awake to pray for his brother Dan.
Dan was in Israel. Running out of money, he had chosen to sleep on a park bench for the night. In the wee hours of the morning, a snarling dog woke him up, battling with a chicken under the bench.
Unable to break up the animals, Dan found another bench and resumed his rest. The next morning, a bomb exploded right next to the first bench, hurtling it through the air, leaving "a mess of tangled metal and concrete."
2. 9/11: Escaping the World Trade Center
Lolita Jackson wrote the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993 "brought old colleagues together and served as folklore to share with new employees in the years that followed." But it was 9/11 that saved her life.
When the planes hit the twin towers on that fateful day in 2001, she and her colleagues hastened to leave. One of her colleagues, Tom, stayed on another floor to make a quick call to his wife, but a voice told Jackson to keep going – Tom died only a few seconds behind her.
Jackson testified that God led her to the stairwell closest to where her building was hit, enabling her to leave the World Trade Center at 9:26 am.
As she left, one of her friends told her to board the subway immediately, which saved her the "profound physical and emotional trauma as a result of being on the street as the buildings collapsed."
3. Didn't You See Him?
Denise Meyer almost lost her mother and her children on a lake in Wisconsin.
When the boat capsized, Meyer lost sight of her two children. God gave her uncommon strength to lift her 2-year-old son Tim out from under the boat. Miraculously, he had found a pocket of air, so the ninety seconds underwater did not drown him.
After Meyer's mother found her 4-year-old daughter Emily and everyone was back safely ashore, the grandmother started having a heart attack. "Had the heart attack started when we were in the water, she would surely have drowned," the witness wrote.
Even then, God still had another miracle to reveal. When Emily was underwater, she had seen a man no one else had noticed. "Grandma," she exclaimed, "the man under the water! He grabbed my foot and put it in your hand!"
Jacobson said this story reminded him of Hebrews 13:2, where Paul urges Christians to be hospitable because some have entertained angels without knowing it. "If God's going to let anybody see them, it's going to be those who still have the faith of children," Jacobson said.
4. Does God Watch Baseball?
Donald L. Jacobson, Sr. took his son out for a baseball game, and prayed on a whim, "Lord, it would sure be nice if I could get a baseball for my boy."
After this prayer, Ray Fosse, a famous catcher for the Portland Beavers, hit a home run, and the ball whizzed straight to the senior Jacobson's feet.
"Miracles are not always big," the father wrote. "Sometimes it is the small ones that shout the loudest of God's love and care for each of us."
"I've still got the ball," Jacobson Jr., the project's creator, told CP.
5. Redeemed
Mobile Phones Pay As You Go
The last story in the book, obtained for CP by special request, recounts God's grace toward Paul Holway, a man whose pain – and a possible demonic possession – led him to murder his own 8-year-old sister when he was twelve.
After 5 years in prison, Holway got addicted to drugs, alcohol, and women. Finally, in a point of desperation, he went to church, shared his life with a pastor, and prayed for God's forgiveness.
"Forgiveness changes everything, but it is not a miracle drug," Holway wrote. Putting his life back together proved difficult, but Jesus' hope restored him. "He loves us unconditionally, regardless of our messed-up lives."
"That's the greatest miracle of all these miracles – that we're redeemed," Jacobson said.
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No. If the miracles don't happen in a controlled scientific environment then people such as yourself are not compelled to believe. Where are the higher beings compelling belief? They are fortifying believers. That's the difference I was talking about.
Again the other point I brought up. Can you imagine all the ramifications of a large scale miracle? No you can't. So you can't say it's a good thing.
I don't follow how countless lives would be saved and millions improved? (are you thinking we could do miracles as a general course?)
In fact there might be wisdom in you being able to call BS. I think the goal of Self-Realization and liberation comes through spiritual effort. We are not to be given proof but have to find truth for ourselves.
My more Hinduish perspective: At some point we will all ask what or if there is a goal to all this? We will wonder about the universe and what we are. The Self-Realized Hindu masters will tell us they know the Truth through direct experience and we can get there ourselves. We can ignore for perhaps many lifetimes but we will never find the eternal peace they talk about. At some point we will be dissatisfied with the world (like Buddha) and will accept what these masters say as only a possibility. Through the spiritual practices they teach we will gradually experience greater peace and well-being and think we may be on to something. Eventually we will become One/God/Brahman and realize our sense of separateness was illusion (Maya in Hinduism).
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Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
ImmortalFlame
Do you know that miracles are being validated all the time by science. You can see some of them in a movie call "I am" by Tom Shadyac, the movie producer that made Liar Liar. It shows that we cause things to happen just by wanting it to happen. We even influence moods and emotions in others just by being in close proximity to them. A bit like a room full of happy people, will eventually end up miserable if a depressed person enters the room for any length of time, or visa versa, if a happy person enters the room. Our whole body's are full of intelligence, every single atom can be controlled by intense thought, they communicate at a far higher level then we can notice, however, the electrical activity can be quite easily picked up when one spirit influences another. It has been demonstrate. You can physically see a human communicating with a cartoon of yoghurt. This is not hog wash, these is scientific research.
Our sixth sense is also a source of possible miracle cures. The ability to communicate with the cancer and instruct it to cease, is not born out of fantasy, when science is currently investigating such a phenomenon. So, science is also on the same wavelength as Christians are. For all you know, I might be able to communicate with your spirit that is thousands of miles away, distance and time are no barriers to the sixth sense. A miracle is only a miracle if it cannot be explained by naturalistic laws. As soon as it can, then it is no longer a miracle. Jesus Healing the sick can be explained today by medicines.
Do you know that miracles are being validated all the time by science. You can see some of them in a movie call "I am" by Tom Shadyac, the movie producer that made Liar Liar. It shows that we cause things to happen just by wanting it to happen. We even influence moods and emotions in others just by being in close proximity to them. A bit like a room full of happy people, will eventually end up miserable if a depressed person enters the room for any length of time, or visa versa, if a happy person enters the room. Our whole body's are full of intelligence, every single atom can be controlled by intense thought, they communicate at a far higher level then we can notice, however, the electrical activity can be quite easily picked up when one spirit influences another. It has been demonstrate. You can physically see a human communicating with a cartoon of yoghurt. This is not hog wash, these is scientific research.
Our sixth sense is also a source of possible miracle cures. The ability to communicate with the cancer and instruct it to cease, is not born out of fantasy, when science is currently investigating such a phenomenon. So, science is also on the same wavelength as Christians are. For all you know, I might be able to communicate with your spirit that is thousands of miles away, distance and time are no barriers to the sixth sense. A miracle is only a miracle if it cannot be explained by naturalistic laws. As soon as it can, then it is no longer a miracle. Jesus Healing the sick can be explained today by medicines.
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outhouse
Atheistically
outhouse
Atheistically
:biglaugh:
For all you know, my little yellow squeaky ducky created everything.
There is more evidence towards that then, your god whom we know was created from previous deities in Canaanite mythology.
My ducky has no mythology surrounding it.
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Sadly, there are some whose minds are closed to reasoning. They will never know the whole truth. It frightens them.
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
No they are factually not being validated in science.
Yes, they are.
RitalinOhD
Heathen Humanist
I would love to see these studies that are being conducted by actual scientists (not pseudoscientific frauds), which are "validating miracles".
Care to provide sources?
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Yes, I would have loved searching the Internet for you, however, the flippant condescension that I have perceived in your post now prevents me from clicking on Google. I have given a good source in my post, why not try your luck and see if you can search for it . Politeness costs nothing and it encourages others to respond in like manner.
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