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Who is in need of saving?
- Thread starter jewscout
- Start date
johnnys4life
Pro-life Mommy
But if you don't know Christ, nobody ever taught you, I think you'll be judged on a curve, in a way. My husband said he thinks the Bible says that those who don't know who Jesus is will be judged by thier works. That's not to say people who openly reject Christ, but I personally think even they will get one more chance in the after-life.
Melody
Well-Known Member
There wasn't a choice for that so I chose the closest. And yes there is a verse (Romans, I think) that implies that if someone has not heard the message, they will be judged by what is in their heart. Sort of takes care of the people born before Christ and those who have never heard. Which in this day and age, with the media available to such a wide audience, I'd guess is a very small percentage of people.johnnys4life said:
If you believe in what the bible says, nothing indicates that we will get a second chance if we hear and turn our back on the message. In fact, I believe the bible is quite specific on that point, is it not?
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
What are you saving us from, JS? 
jewscout
Religious Zionist
from a life of not having Awesome!:jiggy:Maize said:What are you saving us from, JS?
just curious to get a sort of idea of what our christian members think...i know in judaism you can just be a good person and not a jew and have a place in the World to Come (in fact it's easier) but i was just curious since i've heard different opinion from christians...
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Well...... my faith does not view "being saved" the same way as, say, a Baptist would, but....as it relates to the age old saying that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation
To begin, I believe that it was Vatican II that began to define today's revealed truth about this topic, and specifically:
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.
This teaching was clarified in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
My lay person's take on the subject is as follows:
846.........
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
There is no salvation outside of the Church for CATHOLICS who believe that the RCC was founded by Christ and then REJECT IT.
NON-Catholics, 847............Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
To believe that Christ founded the Church, that his body, blood, soul, and divinity is present in the Eucharist and then WALK AWAY from it would be insane.
I am not saying that everyone should believe the teaching of the RCC, but just try to understand that for those WHO DO believe, and still refuse to enter in or to leave the Church there is NO SALVATION.
Peace,
Scott
To begin, I believe that it was Vatican II that began to define today's revealed truth about this topic, and specifically:
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.
This teaching was clarified in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
My lay person's take on the subject is as follows:
846.........
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
There is no salvation outside of the Church for CATHOLICS who believe that the RCC was founded by Christ and then REJECT IT.
NON-Catholics, 847............Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
To believe that Christ founded the Church, that his body, blood, soul, and divinity is present in the Eucharist and then WALK AWAY from it would be insane.
I am not saying that everyone should believe the teaching of the RCC, but just try to understand that for those WHO DO believe, and still refuse to enter in or to leave the Church there is NO SALVATION.
Peace,
Scott
CaptainXeroid
Following Christ
One question on the poll...the first option reads 'Everyone. Except Christ or burn!!!'. Is this asking that only Christ does not need saving (except Christ) or did you mean 'Everyone needs saving', following by the fundamentalist 'Accept Christ or burn!!!' I picked the last one...I think that's between each of us and God.
CaptainXeroid
Following Christ
In NewBeetle.org chat, they call me the GrammarBot...I'm such a nerd.
ayani
member
i've never grasped the concept of salvation through adherence to one path over another... Quakers generally believe that the inner voice of God is available to all, though they may recognise it by differnt names. as many Quakers would dispute the role of Christ in the church, few believe that "acceptring Jesus" is the only way to be saved.
Saint Xtreme
Member
I'd call you a nerd for chatting about VW Beetles, but that's just me.
I need saving - from me!
I believe that, if you go through life doing your best (Not in order to get a ticket to heaven ) you're pretty sure to get in. I'm not going to worry about the entrance exam though; I'll deal with that at the time - which I think will be a long time hence; got to do more incarnations - I've made mistakes in this one.
I believe that, if you go through life doing your best (Not in order to get a ticket to heaven ) you're pretty sure to get in. I'm not going to worry about the entrance exam though; I'll deal with that at the time - which I think will be a long time hence; got to do more incarnations - I've made mistakes in this one.
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
i really agree with you here. the concepts which christ tells all are quite universal and i think that is what matters, instead of proclaiming your faith in a name or title or faith. I believe that salvation from nonreality/illusion comes from within. hinduism says that *liberation of the soul* can be attained from the four yogas. one yoga, which particulary strikes me, says that one can attain liberation by devoting yourself one thing, such as the arts. mastering musical instruments for example. i think this is true because of once *masters* it, they find balance in thier life, reflected into their music....gracie said:
i hope it makes sense...
For monks and a few exceptional laymen the goal of Buddhism must be the purification of the mind leading to a state known as Nibbana, but for many Buddhists a more modest aim would be to lead a good life. For them recollection of the life of the Buddha and his Teaching helps them to achieve this goal.Engyo said:
Nibbana :-To cease blowing. Nibbana is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, the third noble truth. In nibbana, the suffering and the desire that causes suffering have come to an end, as has the cycle of birth and death. Sometimes nibbana was referred to by the Buddha as 'unborn' and 'unconditioned', in contrast to the phenomenal world we experience in our unenlightened state.
As I do have a faith that has much in common with Bhuddism, I tend to see life the way a Bhuddist does.
"The goal of Buddhism is to save all beings from suffering"- I tend to take that to extremes; even if I am scared of an insect, animal - whatever is living, I will always try to save it (More often than not, spiders in the bath); I carefully cup then in my hands, and put them in the garden. My family think I am nuts.
Engyo
Prince of Dorkness!
This is probably the wrong topic for this, but the view expressed above is a Theravadan one; other traditions in Buddhism interpret the teachings somewhat differently. My school in particular follows the Bodhisattva path, in which the goal is for all beings to reach the end of suffering; I don't achieve this for myself first and only then focus on others. I will stop here, as this belongs in the Buddhist forum.michel said:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi, there!jewscout said:
I love polls, but I didn't vote on this one because none of the choices matched my beliefs.
Jesus Christ said (as recorded in John 14:6), "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
And in Mark 16:16, He put yet another condition on our salvation: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
From a strictly Christian perspective, those scriptures sound pretty cut and dried to me. But they pose a couple of dilemmas: (1) How can you believe in something you've never been exposed to? Had you been born in 11th century China, for instance, how likely would you have been to have even heard of Jesus Christ? That's a no-brainer. You'd have lived and died clueless! (2) Would a loving God condemn millions of His own children to an eternity in Hell just because they happened to be born at the wrong time or in the wrong place? Not the God I believe in!
I believe that during the period of time in between death and resurrection, all who have ever lived will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, and to either accept or reject Him as their Savior. When it comes time for us to stand before God to be judged, no one will find himself in the position of having to say, "But I didn't know about Jesus!
BUDDY
User of Aspercreme
I believe that to attain salvation from sin, and thusly have aplace with God in heaven, is to believe Jesus Christ is the Savior of man and the Son of God, repent of those things you have done wrong and not do them again, be baptised as is commanded and live a life that is pleasing to God as best as you can (righteousness). That is what I know, nut I don't feel comfortable talking about what I don't know, so as far as who is out, I will leave that to God and not try to guess. I just try to do my best to do the things I know I should and try to let others know the same if they feel like listening.