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"Who Is More Important: My People or Others?"

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
A friend asked me this question today: "Yes, the Paris attacks are horrible, but the daily attacks in the Arab world don't get as much press coverage. Who is more important: my people [Arabs] or those [Western people]?"

My answer is that the two are equally important to me. I find the notion that we should care more about the lives of people living in our countries and regions of birth than others to be tribalistic at best. A human life is a human life. Death doesn't differentiate between people based on their ethnicity, nationality, or place of residence. The implication that friend was making was that caring about the lives of the French people meant that I didn't care as much about the lives of the innocent people in Syria, Iraq, etc. I think that's a false dichotomy that only serves to divide people on an arbitrary basis.

Furthermore, I have strong reasons to sympathize with Western people and grieve for their losses. For one, most of my values are diametrically opposed to those of my society's; instead, they are aligned rather comfortably with Western values. I live in a region where millions of people think that those like me should be killed or at least imprisoned. Of course I would feel more comfortable in a Western country where I would be accepted as a human being with rights.

The second strong reason—and this one is more pertinent than shared values—is that a lot of Western people, mainly from the U.S., England, and Finland, have helped me get through times when I literally had no support whatsoever from anyone. They have been there to listen to me during my very worst times, times when all I was hearing from most of my supposed "brothers and sisters" (compatriots and fellow Arabs) was hostile denigration and rejection of atheists, especially ex-Muslims. I'm not exaggerating when I say that online interactions with Western people have single-handedly gotten me through particularly difficult times, including times when I was just about ready to kill myself.

So no, I'm not going to feel ashamed of sympathizing with Western people, including the people in France, the victims of 9/11, the victims of the London bombings, and the victims of any other terrorist attack that targets innocent people in the "West." My sympathy with them doesn't mean that I don't care as much about the suffering of my fellow Arabs, as some people seem to imply. That's because terrorist attacks on the average Joe and Jane in a Western country are, to me, akin to attacks on allies and friends. I will show solidarity with and support for my allies and friends wherever they are and wherever they happen to come from.

#JeSuisParis
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
There is an important sense in which no one is (in principle at least) more important than anyone else. That seems to be a fundamental principle of humanism, for instance, and it is a principle on which certain notions of justice, ethics, and much else rest.

But there are also ways in which people have differing circumstantial importance. Generally speaking, I am going to feel a greater sense of responsibility to people who are nearer to me physically, or emotionally, etc, than to people who are further away from me.

For instance, if anonymous telemarketer calls me asking me to donate to a worthy cause, I am going to prioritize her request somewhat below my best friend's request for a loan.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As much as I'd like to profess "equality", in practice we tend to value freinds and family above strangers purely because emotionally they are more important to us. However, recognise that "tribalism" is a really dangerous position to take, not simply because beyond personal familarity these become very abstract (e.g. race, nation, class, etc.) but also because when you start thinking of people "outside" the tribe as inferior or as not having the same rights- that's tacitly saying you can do whatever you want to them. It's taken some heavy battering intellectually and emotionally because "humanity" is such a ridiculously abstract concept, I still try to treat people as equals if only to prevent those kinds of abuses.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
In truth, all people are not equal to my mind. My family come first. The boundary condition regarding what constitutes 'my family' is the important thing if one wanted to change my opinion about the importance of another.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks for the input, all. Good points.

I think it is worth clarifying that I'm comparing how I feel about two random groups of people, not family and friends. I don't see any reason to value the lives of a random group of people more than another just because of physical nearness. And if we are talking about friends, physical distance doesn't matter more than how you feel about a friend regardless of where they are.

I do realize that news of one's "tribe" or ethnic group sells more than news of others. I think that is something we should be aware of and try to change, because, all else being equal, I find it unjustified to perceive the value of lives as decreasing the farther away from me the victims are.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
As much as I'd like to profess "equality", in practice we tend to value freinds and family above strangers purely because emotionally they are more important to us. However, recognise that "tribalism" is a really dangerous position to take, not simply because beyond personal familarity these become very abstract (e.g. race, nation, class, etc.) but also because when you start thinking of people "outside" the tribe as inferior or as not having the same rights- that's tacitly saying you can do whatever you want to them. It's taken some heavy battering intellectually and emotionally because "humanity" is such a ridiculously abstract concept, I still try to treat people as equals if only to prevent those kinds of abuses.

I've just read this again to give it more thought, and I definitely agree.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
In truth, all people are not equal to my mind. My family come first. The boundary condition regarding what constitutes 'my family' is the important thing if one wanted to change my opinion about the importance of another.

What are the conditions that constitute "your family"?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
A friend asked me this question today: "Yes, the Paris attacks are horrible, but the daily attacks in the Arab world don't get as much press coverage. Who is more important: my people [Arabs] or those [Western people]?"

Works both ways, unfortunately. Apparently, calling out the military for pointlessly killing innocent people makes one a terrorist coddler.
 

Baladas

An Págánach
Works both ways, unfortunately. Apparently, calling out the military for pointlessly killing innocent people makes one a terrorist coddler.
Exactly. I'm right there with you, @dust1n.

I mourn for France, but I also mourn for all of the other killings I hear about.
They happen constantly, and often at the hands of Western governments (especially the States).
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A friend asked me this question today: "Yes, the Paris attacks are horrible, but the daily attacks in the Arab world don't get as much press coverage. Who is more important: my people [Arabs] or those [Western people]?"

My answer is that the two are equally important to me. I find the notion that we should care more about the lives of people living in our countries and regions of birth than others to be tribalistic at best. A human life is a human life. Death doesn't differentiate between people based on their ethnicity, nationality, or place of residence. The implication that friend was making was that caring about the lives of the French people meant that I didn't care as much about the lives of the innocent people in Syria, Iraq, etc. I think that's a false dichotomy that only serves to divide people on an arbitrary basis.

Furthermore, I have strong reasons to sympathize with Western people and grieve for their losses. For one, most of my values are diametrically opposed to those of my society's; instead, they are aligned rather comfortably with Western values. I live in a region where millions of people think that those like me should be killed or at least imprisoned. Of course I would feel more comfortable in a Western country where I would be accepted as a human being with rights.

The second strong reason—and this one is more pertinent than shared values—is that a lot of Western people, mainly from the U.S., England, and Finland, have helped me get through times when I literally had no support whatsoever from anyone. They have been there to listen to me during my very worst times, times when all I was hearing from most of my supposed "brothers and sisters" (compatriots and fellow Arabs) was hostile denigration and rejection of atheists, especially ex-Muslims. I'm not exaggerating when I say that online interactions with Western people have single-handedly gotten me through particularly difficult times, including times when I was just about ready to kill myself.

So no, I'm not going to feel ashamed of sympathizing with Western people, including the people in France, the victims of 9/11, the victims of the London bombings, and the victims of any other terrorist attack that targets innocent people in the "West." My sympathy with them doesn't mean that I don't care as much about the suffering of my fellow Arabs, as some people seem to imply. That's because terrorist attacks on the average Joe and Jane in a Western country are, to me, akin to attacks on allies and friends. I will show solidarity with and support for my allies and friends wherever they are and wherever they happen to come from.

#JeSuisParis
Hello DS! Couple of questions for you and forgive me if you've answered them before as I am still relatively new here. One, What was it that led you toward atheism being that my impression of middle eastern countries is that they are very religious in nature. And Two, Are you safe there now, having the opinions that you do?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Exactly. I'm right there with you, @dust1n.

I mourn for France, but I also mourn for all of the other killings I hear about.
They happen constantly, and often at the hands of Western governments (especially the States).

Most Americans I know are so lacking in any historical context for any decision making in foreign policy, that their opinions about it can be quite laughable. What isn't laughable is that the gaffes we make generally costs hundreds of thousands of lives for no particular purpose, and at the expense of more or less everyone for the general benefit of a small group of interested parties.
 
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Baladas

An Págánach
Most Americans I know are so lacking in any historical context for any decision making in foreign policy, that there are opinions about it can be quite laughable. What isn't laughable is that the gaffes we make generally costs hundreds of thousands of lives for no particular purpose, and at the expense of more or less everyone for the general benefit of a small group of interested parties.

Very true.
Millions and millions of people are just letting this happen, and they don't even know it or care to know it.
Some don't even care enough to take the time to consider politics at all. I know several like that.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Very true.
Millions and millions of people are just letting this happen, and they don't even know it or care to know it.
Some don't even care enough to take the time to consider politics at all. I know several like that.

Well, letting it happen, I can understand. But it does bother me how little people are willing to think about, considering the gravity of situations of things, like war.
 
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