Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
Where in the Bible can I read this passage?I fully agree.
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Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I saw enough with the sampling they gave.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You do know that the Baha'is use William Miller's calculations to show that 1844 was the year when "Christ" returned. But it was really the forerunner The Bab. The main prophet declared himself later.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Problem is, Jesus has not spoken that He will return to earth, not even once in the entire New Testament. Jesus said He was no more in the world and His work was finished here.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Those verses mean one of three things:
1. Jesus lied, or
2. The New Testament is in error, or
3. Jesus is not coming back to earth
I am voting for #3.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I know all about those verses so I already have an interpretation ready and waiting.
Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I believe that the disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.
The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.
Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
For Christians (disciples of Jesus) it is said:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5
In Biblical point of view, for Christians, there is no other Messiah/Christ.
I think it does not mean no one will ever see him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
From the Baha'i point of view, that verse above only applied to the Dispensation of Jesus Christ.
Indeed, the one mediator during that Dispensation was Jesus Christ, there was no other one, because God was ordering the affairs of the world through Jesus during His Dispensation. But from the Baha'i point of view, God is now ordering the affairs of the world through Baha'u'llah.
Dispensation
- the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
- an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
- a divinely appointed order or age:
Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com
I do not think so either. I think some people will see Jesus in heaven.
I wonder why that is not good enough for Christians?
Why do they wait and hope and expect Jesus to return to earth even though Jesus said He was not going to return?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Is that an official Baha'i position? Because I don't hear any other Baha'is saying this? You keep repeating over and over again your five verses, but disregard the rest of the NT. Plus, you probably have, and probably will continue to disregard these verses...
So Jesus says he is going away, but then says he will come again? I know it is easy for Baha'is to explain away. But still, it is Jesus saying he is coming again.
Same with this one... This is supposedly Jesus speaking and says that he is coming soon. So Jesus has "spoken" that he will return. I'll accept that this is in a vision so who knows what this John was really hearing. The other verse is some unknown gospel writer who wasn't there when Jesus spoke, so who knows what Jesus really said. Then there is always the Baha'i symbolic interpretation that makes something that literally says that Jesus is going to return into him meaning that he will "symbolically" return.
Like whoever this John guy is really knows and remember exactly what Jesus said. Why take these so literal and pretty much nothing else about Jesus? Like him coming back to life? All it shows is that Baha'is, like everybody else, are very selective of what they want to believe from the NT and the Bible.
So one of the gospels says that Jesus had a disciple touch him and then Jesus says he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. Baha'is don't believe that verse. Why? What is your explanation/interpretation of that verse? But, for Christians, that verse is true. Jesus had a flesh and bone body. Christians believe that body floated off into the sky. You say it was his Spirit. So what happened to that body? It never existed? All the appearances were a vision of a spirit? So that flesh and bone verse is false?
Baha'is, I think, say that the Lion of Judah is Baha'u'llah. Here it sure seems to be saying that the Lion of Judah is the Lamb that was slain.
Hmmm, the Lamb had 12 apostles. At that time, who would that be referring to? Only Jesus. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David" The Lamb is also tied in with being the Root and Offspring of David. Without having a clear and reasonable interpretation that makes Baha'u'llah the "Lamb", then Baha'is are missing a huge piece of the Revelation puzzle. If Baha'u'llah didn't address it, then Baha'is today can only make guesses. You have a reasonable guess?
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And do you understand the Christian point of view? That Jesus paid the penalty for sin once and for all. That all people have fallen short of God's requirements. That the Law saved no one but only showed that by their own works, they could never be good enough to earn salvation.
Was that ever right? Or was this Paul's interpretation of things? If so, then it has nothing to do with a "dispensation" of Jesus, it is Paul's saying things that Jesus never said. Saying things that implied people were inherently evil and prone to sin... that only through Jesus can they be made righteous before God.
Or, Paul was exactly right and was being guided by God?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, it is not the official Baha’i position. The only official Baha’i position is that Bahaullah was the return of Christ, so obviously that means that Jesus will not be the return of Christ.
The verse is the one Brian2 always tried to use because he knows he has no other verses where Jesus says anything in the first person about coming again…
The questions are come again where and come again how? The verse does not say Jesus will come to earth again in the same body. According to the Baha’i Faith, the Spirit of Jesus did come again when God sent the Holy Spirit in the person of Baha’u’llah, which was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth that Jesus promised to send from the Father.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
It is not being selective to cite verses from John because those just happen to be the verses that say what Jesus purportedly said just before He left this world so those are the verses where Jesus said He would be NO MORE in this world.
But if you think John is not Jesus’ words, what reason would you have to believe that Matthew, Mark or Luke are Jesus words? Those disciples did not write the text.
My explanation is that it was just a verse that was written into the fictitious resurrection story. Anyone can write a story but that does not make it true. An alternate explanation is that maybe the spiritual body of Jesus came back from heaven to earth after Jesus died and appeared to Thomas and made Thomas think He was real. After all, the Baha’is believe that Jesus could perform miracles, as all the Manifestations of God are the source of miracles.
Nobody knows what happened to the body of Jesus, but even if an empty tomb could be found, that is not proof that Jesus rose from the grave. There is no proof, only belief.
Baha'u'llah has said it requires both, one is not exclusive from the other. I see this is what the Bible also offers.
The fist step is recognition and acceptance of the Messenger and then service and deeds are required.
Acceptance by itself is not enough, but has a spiritual result never the less.
Service and deeds by themselves are not enough, but has a spiritual result never the less.
I see it is a spiritual state of being and reflects the following advice, this says it best for me as to what faith is;
“These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other.” – Baha’u’llah, The Most Holy Book, p. 19.
"..Although a person of good deeds is acceptable at the Threshold of the Almighty, yet it is first “to know,” and then “to do.” Although a blind man produceth a most wonderful and exquisite art, yet he is deprived of seeing it. Consider how most animals labor for man, draw loads and facilitate travel; yet, as they are ignorant, they receive no reward for this toil and labor. The cloud raineth, roses and hyacinths grow; the plain and meadow, the garden and trees become green and blossom; yet they do not realize the results and outcome of all these. The lamp is lighted, but as it hath not a conscious knowledge of itself, no one hath become glad because of it. Moreover, a soul of excellent deeds and good manners will undoubtedly advance from whatever horizon he beholdeth the lights radiating. Herein lies the difference: By faith is meant, first, conscious knowledge, and second, the practice of good deeds. – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, pp. 382-383.
Regards Tony
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
My friend read Luke 24:36-42. Specially verse 39. And also read John 20:19-29. If this words of Jesus Himself don't convince you, then nothing could.I know all about those verses so I already have an interpretation ready and waiting.
Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I believe that the disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.
The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.
Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
We have proofs, and also believe. It is you that don't believe. Don't you think that all those real Christians their lives was not changed when they have a personal meeting with Jesus? Do you think that Christians let them kill them if there is not a Man called Jesus Christ of NAZARETH? And a God Father called Jehovah?
The problem is that we are living in the end of this world, and Matthew 24 is fulfilling. Read Matthew 24 and you know where you are.
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
Where in the Bible I can read that Jesus said that He is not coming back?
Read John 14:1-4.
Baha is not Jesus, he is not my teacher. Baha is laying. The Bible is the only sources of faith.
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
Baha is a layer, he is against the Bible. Open your eyes and follow only the Bible my friend. Go and read Matthew 24.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How is that related to the return of Jesus?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do believe in Jesus and that He was sent by God, and I believe in God because Jesus revealed God. I believe in Jesus because Baha'u'llah confirmed that Jesus existed in more than one passage, including this passage wherein He referred to Jesus as the Son of Man:
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86