Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

[Trailblazer]

Where in the Bible I can read that Jesus said that He is not coming back?
Read John 14:1-4.

Those verses are not Jesus saying He was coming back to earth in the same body. "I will come again" means that the Spirit of Jesus will come again, not His physical body. It could not be His physical body that is coming since we would be able to SEE a physical body if it came to earth, but Jesus said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Baha is not Jesus, he is not my teacher. Baha is lying. The Bible is the only sources of faith.

You are perfectly free to believe that if you want to because God gave everyone free will.

To say the Bible is the only source if faith is to say that the 71% of people in the world who are not Christians have no faith and they were all abandoned by God, which is an untenable belief, if God is Loving and Just.[/QUOTE]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha is a layer, he is against the Bible. Open your eyes and follow only the Bible my friend. Go and read Matthew 24.

I personally see that Mathew 24 contains all the guidance needed to know Baha'u'llah is not against the Bible, but the one Jesus the Christ is pointing us to.

Saying to beware of many False Christs, but then also showing us how to determine a true Christ, means that we should not reject them one and all, without first determining who is true and who is false.

Always happy to discuss. Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha is a layer, he is against the Bible.

No, Baha'u'llah was not against the Bible. Baha'u'llah addressed following passage to Muslims who said the Bible had been corrupted, referring to the Bible as God's holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

 

[Trailblazer]

Go and read Matthew 24.

Saying that there will be many false christs is not to say that there will not be a true Christ. That would be like saying that just because there are many junky cars in the junkyard, there cannot be nice new car in the new car lot. Sure there have been many false christs but that does not mean there will not be a true Christ.

Jesus told us how to distinguish between a false prophet and a true Prophet

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Baha'u'llah had good fruits.

 

[Pipiripi]

Today now is e new teaching called Baha'u'llah. Now everybody goes to Hebrews languages and makes their own stories. Nobody have the Bible as their guidens of life. That's why Matthew 24 is for them.
And also 2Thessalonians 2:10-12.

 

[Pipiripi]

No, Baha'u'llah was not against the Bible. Baha'u'llah addressed following passage to Muslims who said the Bible had been corrupted, referring to the Bible as God's holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

Go and see moslim converted to Christians Khamal.

 

[Pipiripi]

I personally see that Mathew 24 contains all the guidance needed to know Baha'u'llah is not against the Bible, but the one Jesus the Christ is pointing us to.

Saying to beware of many False Christs, but then also showing us how to determine a true Christ, means that we should not reject them one and all, without first determining who is true and who is false.

Always happy to discuss. Regards Tony

Then why people don't believe in the words of Jesus Himself. Where come the teaching that Jesus don't have a body? Why people are not following only the Bible? Jesus said THINK NOT! Why they think the opposite?

 

[Pipiripi]

Those verses are not Jesus saying He was coming back to earth in the same body. "I will come again" means that the Spirit of Jesus will come again, not His physical body. It could not be His physical body that is coming since we would be able to SEE a physical body if it came to earth, but Jesus said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

You are perfectly free to believe that if you want to because God gave everyone free will.

To say the Bible is the only source if faith is to say that the 71% of people in the world who are not Christians have no faith and they were all abandoned by God, which is an untenable belief, if God is Loving and Just.

[/QUOTE]
No my friend, the 29% is Atheist and God has speak already what will happen to them. But the professed Christians today that bring a lot of teaching that isn't in the Bible. Till now I didn't find someone that is BIBLICAL agree with me.
How read Galatians 1:1-10.

 

[Trailblazer]

But the professed Christians today that bring a lot of teaching that isn't in the Bible.

That is what most Christians say... "All the other Christians who believe differently than I do are wrong."
That means that only some Christians are right, but which ones are right?
The other alternative is that all Christians are partly right but none of them are not fully right.
I am banking on the latter.

 

[Trailblazer]

And do you understand the Christian point of view? That Jesus paid the penalty for sin once and for all. That all people have fallen short of God's requirements. That the Law saved no one but only showed that by their own works, they could never be good enough to earn salvation.

Was that ever right? Or was this Paul's interpretation of things? If so, then it has nothing to do with a "dispensation" of Jesus, it is Paul's saying things that Jesus never said. Saying things that implied people were inherently evil and prone to sin... that only through Jesus can they be made righteous before God.

Or, Paul was exactly right and was being guided by God?

As you may or may not recall, about two years ago I posted a thread about Paul, and how he changed the course of Christianity.

Below are the highlights of that thread:

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ….

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy….

Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. “

(Udo Schaefer, Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ )

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

 

[Trailblazer]

No my friend, the 29% is Atheist and God has speak already what will happen to them.

No, only about 7% of the world population are atheists:

According to sociologists ArielaKeysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

I do not believe anything will happen to atheists except that they will not know God when they die, but by the mercy of God, they might come to know God after they die. Some fruit only ripens after it falls from the tree.

 

[CG Didymus]

But if you think John is not Jesus’ words, what reason would you have to believe that Matthew, Mark or Luke are Jesus words? Those disciples did not write the text.

I don't know for sure, but I question them all. I think there is a very good chance that the stories have a lot of embellishments.

Nobody knows what happened to the body of Jesus, but even if an empty tomb could be found, that is not proof that Jesus rose from the grave. There is no proof, only belief.

Well, the gospels claim that there was people still alive at the time the gospels were written that witnessed the resurrected Jesus. Baha'i say he dead? Fine. But then don't claim that you believe in the NT. I'm more than fine with anybody that says it is probably mostly fiction... no walking on water, no bringing Lazarus back to life, no casting demons out of people, no talking to Satan, God not speaking from heaven, no virgin birth, and no resurrection. But, as improbable as it all is, that's is what the NT writers say really happened. The problem that Baha'is have is saying they believe in the NT and the Bible, then talk about all the things they don't believe about it. I know I know... it is "symbolically" true. Jesus "symbolically" rose from the dead and healed people. I, personally, think that is worse than saying it all a bunch of B.S.

 

[CG Didymus]

I personally see that Mathew 24 contains all the guidance needed to know Baha'u'llah is not against the Bible, but the one Jesus the Christ is pointing us to.

Saying to beware of many False Christs, but then also showing us how to determine a true Christ, means that we should not reject them one and all, without first determining who is true and who is false.

Always happy to discuss. Regards Tony

It says wars and all that stuff are happening but that is not yet the end. Baha'is say "Christ" has already come, but the wars and rumors of wars continue? What's worse, it says that while those wars and rumors of wars are going on that many will come in his name. And you can honestly say that this doesn't raise a red flag? I'm sure it doesn't, because you have a very logical explanation. Which is what again?

For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.​

 

[rational experiences]

Water owned by the healthy living bio life human beings, theist Satanism and liars, irradiation of life said. I split water mass into 2 and half of it evaporated off the face of the Earth and had to form a higher cloud mass.

Why it then rained non stop for atmospheric cooling for 40 days and 40 nights.

Back then I made new sink holes, which is a mountain mass in reverse removal.

As I put ^ my pyramid as fake/false artificial mountain atop of the ground....so beneath the ground was the rest of the mountain by original vision/UFO to mountain flooded Earth first science thesis review. So I made new sink holes, the flood first had to fill up the new sink holes. Water then lapped around the bottom of the Sphinx and the Giza pyramid and I quoted that my Temple science had destroyed Egyptian life.

We left the area due to fall out and emigrated over the seas. Due to radiation mutation/Moses theme. Jesus story, my Father in my Holy Land did it in the past, sacrificed my baby life that had just returned, then did it again confession.

Even the documents said that the Hebrew/Jewish Moses Temple advice struck and defeated the Egyptian control. As that science confession as written.

Water owns natural microbiome that we use to be healthy. It is our bio cell natural energy body that is our food. So our food in water got sacrificed and removed so that new cloud mass could form. Why we saw the carbon impression image of life from the ground removed by UFO conditions.

So we knew the microbiome had gone, would never return to the life of a man for he had carbonised it. Just how it was taught, relative to the actual reasoning in science.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know for sure, but I question them all. I think there is a very good chance that the stories have a lot of embellishments.

I agree, so what to do? I believe that Abdu'l-Baha embellished what Baha'u'llah wrote and called it an interpretation. Do we still accept it as all true, or can we believe it is a close enough approximation?

Well, the gospels claim that there was people still alive at the time the gospels were written that witnessed the resurrected Jesus. Baha'i say he dead? Fine. But then don't claim that you believe in the NT. I'm more than fine with anybody that says it is probably mostly fiction... no walking on water, no bringing Lazarus back to life, no casting demons out of people, no talking to Satan, God not speaking from heaven, no virgin birth, and no resurrection. But, as improbable as it all is, that's is what the NT writers say really happened. The problem that Baha'is have is saying they believe in the NT and the Bible, then talk about all the things they don't believe about it. I know I know... it is "symbolically" true. Jesus "symbolically" rose from the dead and healed people. I, personally, think that is worse than saying it all a bunch of B.S.

FWIW, I do not but what Abdu'l-Baha said about the resurrection and what it means. It is just one man's opinion, and Abdu'l-Baha is not infallible. Most Baha'is tell me I have to consider what Abdu'l-Baha said as equal to what Baha'u'llah wrote but I cannot do it.

Many liberal Christians hold the same position as Baha'is, that Jesus never rose bodily from the grave, and I consider them Christians who believe in the Bible and Jesus. They just interpret the Bible differently.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

 

[1213]

…But from the Baha'i point of view, God is now ordering the affairs of the world through Baha'u'llah….

That is interesting. But, I am sorry, that is not Biblical, and I want to be loyal to Bible God.

…Why do they wait and hope and expect Jesus to return to earth even though Jesus said He was not going to return?

It is so, because that is what the Bible tells.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Why do they wait and hope and expect Jesus to return to earth even though Jesus said He was not going to return?

It is so, because that is what the Bible tells.

No, the Bible does not say Jesus is going to return. If it said that, Christians would be able to provide me with the verses that say that, but after over six years of posting to Christians on various forums, not one Christian has ever been able to provide me with those verses.

The Son of man Bible verses are not Jesus saying He is going to return.

Jesus never said: “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?” Jesus always referred to the Son of man in the third person. That means that the Son of man is someone other than Jesus.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and Jesus says “also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

 

[CG Didymus]

FWIW, I do not but what Abdu'l-Baha said about the resurrection and what it means. It is just one man's opinion, and Abdu'l-Baha is not infallible. Most Baha'is tell me I have to consider what Abdu'l-Baha said as equal to what Baha'u'llah wrote but I cannot do it.

That's what I remember being told... that his writings were infallible.

Many liberal Christians hold the same position as Baha'is, that Jesus never rose bodily from the grave, and I consider them Christians who believe in the Bible and Jesus. They just interpret the Bible differently.

Most Christians need some kind of descriptive word in front of the name "Christian." Like conservative or liberal, full gospel and Pentecostal, Catholic or Protestant, then all the groups within that like Baptist, Lutheran and so on. And we can't forget "Fundamentalist". I think liberal Christians could be called "Baha'is that haven't signed a card yet."

 

[Trailblazer]

That's what I remember being told... that his writings were infallible.

I do not accept that and I am getting guff from the Baha'is but I do not care.
Only God and Manifestations of God are infallible.

Most Christians need some kind of descriptive word in front of the name "Christian." Like conservative or liberal, full gospel and Pentecostal, Catholic or Protestant, then all the groups within that like Baptist, Lutheran and so on. And we can't forget "Fundamentalist". I think liberal Christians could be called "Baha'is that haven't signed a card yet."

Yes, Christians are all very different.

 

[The Anointed]

No, the Bible does not say Jesus is going to return. If it said that, Christians would be able to provide me with the verses that say that, but after over six years of posting to Christians on various forums, not one Christian has ever been able to provide me with those verses.

The Son of man Bible verses are not Jesus saying He is going to return.

Jesus never said: “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?” Jesus always referred to the Son of man in the third person. That means that the Son of man is someone other than Jesus.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and Jesus says “also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

It was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18-19; “----“I will send them a prophet just like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything that I command him to say. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he will speak in MY NAME, I will surely punish.”

Peter reveals who that prophet was, when in Acts 3: 12; in reference to the man Jesus, Peter says; “For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will send you a prophet just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc.”

The people of his day, knew that he was not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the prophet that he would choose from among the Israelites and send to speak ‘HIS WORDS’ to the people in ‘HIS NAME,’ when on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, they cried out, “Blessed is He who comes in ‘THE NAME’ of the Lord.”

Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say by our Lord God and savior, ‘The Son of Man,’ who had filled him with his spirit on the day that he was baptized.

It was the ‘Son of Man,’ the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who put ‘HIS WORDS’ into the mouth of Jesus, his chosen prophet, who he sent to the people to speak ‘HIS WORDS’ in ‘HIS NAME,’ who command Jesus to say; “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

Who was it who raised up the body of the man Jesus, the earthly temple of the Lord?

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord God our savior) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

And the day that our Lord has fixed in which he shall judge the whole world with Justice by means of the MAN Jesus, who He raised from death, is the Great Seventh day Sabbath of one thousand years, the future reality of which the weekly Sabbath was but a shadow. Which Sabbath day begins immediately after the great tribulation that occurs at the close of the sixth day from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that DAY, at the age of 930.