Who killed all those babies?

[WanderingSoul]

(Note: This new thread has been moved from Christian DIR. I'm new in here and did not know I could not debate in that area. Sorry to those who were kind enough to respond.)

I am confused about something concerning the Christ story, and maybe you can help.

Why did all those babies have to die by Herod's hand after Christ was born?

This has always bothered me. Couldn't God have just been born like any other child without causing the slaughter of a bunch of innocents? Christ's birth was foreordained by God, if Christinity is true; so clearly God knew Christ's birth would result in that massacre, right? If we have any doubt about God's knowledge of Christ's harrowing escape from death during infancy, we need only read this in Mathew:

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

"Angel of the Lord," makes it perfectly clear to me that God knew full well what was going on there in Judea.

Further, there exists in the "Word of God" passages that speak of God's Omniscience:

1John, 3:19-20
Job 37:16
Psalms 147:5
Proverbs 15:3
Mathew 10:29

To offer just a few.

Herod did the killing, but with God's foreknowledge. Now, millions of babies are born every year without causing a slaughter, so why could God not have done the same? Does God not care about babies? Why do Christians rarely speak of these babies and their pained mothers who suffered for the sake of Christ's birth?

Most importantly: How can I have faith in the idea that the Christian God can offer me salvation for all eternity, when that same God couldn't even do what billions of mothers have done naturally? and be born without causing the slaughter of a bunch of babies. Is the Christian God really as inept as He seems, or am I just missing something?

Thanks

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It's all God's fault. Debate closed, everyone happy?

 

[WanderingSoul]

It's all God's fault. Debate closed, everyone happy?

I know you're being humorous, but let me ask anyway: If it's God's fault, then am I reasonable in rejecting such a God as being the author of my salvation? Or should I not be so picky about a baby genocide and just stay focused on my own spiritual welfare?

 

[emptybe]

I know you're being humorous, but let me ask anyway: If it's God's fault, then am I reasonable in rejecting such a God as being the author of my salvation? Or should I not be so picky about a baby genocide and just stay focused on my own spiritual welfare?

If you like baby killer gods then he's the one for you... Just think of all the things he did in the Old Testament... Yikes

 

[BigRed]

(Note: This new thread has been moved from Christian DIR. I'm new in here and did not know I could not debate in that area. Sorry to those who were kind enough to respond.)

I am confused about something concerning the Christ story, and maybe you can help.

Why did all those babies have to die by Herod's hand after Christ was born?

This has always bothered me. Couldn't God have just been born like any other child without causing the slaughter of a bunch of innocents? Christ's birth was foreordained by God, if Christinity is true; so clearly God knew Christ's birth would result in that massacre, right? If we have any doubt about God's knowledge of Christ's harrowing escape from death during infancy, we need only read this in Mathew:

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

"Angel of the Lord," makes it perfectly clear to me that God knew full well what was going on there in Judea.

Further, there exists in the "Word of God" passages that speak of God's Omniscience:

1John, 3:19-20
Job 37:16
Psalms 147:5
Proverbs 15:3
Mathew 10:29

To offer just a few.

Herod did the killing, but with God's foreknowledge. Now, millions of babies are born every year without causing a slaughter, so why could God not have done the same? Does God not care about babies? Why do Christians rarely speak of these babies and their pained mothers who suffered for the sake of Christ's birth?

Most importantly: How can I have faith in the idea that the Christian God can offer me salvation for all eternity, when that same God couldn't even do what billions of mothers have done naturally? and be born without causing the slaughter of a bunch of babies. Is the Christian God really as inept as He seems, or am I just missing something?

Thanks

Don't worry about those babies.....the story is fiction.

Matthew 2:18
A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH,
WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING,
RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN;
AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED,
BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE."

First..Ramah is about 10 miles from Bethlehem where Jesus was living.
Second....Leah was the mother of the Jews, not Rachel.
Third if you look back in Jeremiah where the Bible quote originated you see that the children are alive. They were just captive.
Jeremiah 31:15-16
15Thus says the LORD,
"A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more."
16Thus says the LORD,
"Restrain your voice from weeping
And your eyes from tears;
For your work will be rewarded," declares the LORD,
"And they will return from the land of the enemy.

BigRed

 

[WanderingSoul]

If you like baby killer gods then he's the one for you... Just think of all the things he did in the Old Testament... Yikes

I appreciate your humor.:yes:

Joking aside...

For the sake of argument let's accept God's existence, without any religious label. Do you think there could be any justification for God to do such a thing? that is, cause a baby genocide? Or do you reject outright the possibility that the God of the universe would enact a plan of salvation for mankind if it required the slaughter of a bunch of babies?

 

[emptybe]

Hosea 9:16 Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb

13:8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

13:16 Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up

 

[WanderingSoul]

Don't worry about those babies.....the story is fiction.

Matthew 2:18
A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH,
WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING,
RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN;
AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED,
BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE."

First..Ramah is about 10 miles from Bethlehem where Jesus was living.
Second....Leah was the mother of the Jews, not Rachel.
Third if you look back in Jeremiah where the Bible quote originated you see that the children are alive. They were just captive.
Jeremiah 31:15-16
15Thus says the LORD,
"A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more."
16Thus says the LORD,
"Restrain your voice from weeping
And your eyes from tears;
For your work will be rewarded," declares the LORD,
"And they will return from the land of the enemy.

BigRed

Oh, thanks for stalking...I mean following me to this new spot!

I think my previous response was something like, "Do you think that the NT version of Christ as a sacrifice for all is a fiction, or just that one part about God killing all those adorable babies?"

 

[emptybe]

I appreciate your humor.:yes:

Joking aside...

For the sake of argument let's accept God's existence, without any religious label. Do you think there could be any justification for God to do such a thing? that is, cause a baby genocide? Or do you reject outright the possibility that the God of the universe would enact a plan of salvation for mankind if it required the slaughter of a bunch of babies?

I'm pretty sure that God can do whatever He wants... So choosing to go the route of killing babies doesn't make much sense to me when he could just snap his fingers and save us all.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I know you're being humorous, but let me ask anyway: If it's God's fault, then am I reasonable in rejecting such a God as being the author of my salvation? Or should I not be so picky about a baby genocide and just stay focused on my own spiritual welfare?

Your whole persective is wrong. Try looking at it from God's point of view.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm pretty sure that God can do whatever He wants... So choosing to go the route of killing babies doesn't make much sense to me when he could just snap his fingers and save us all.

Shall we all vote for emptybe as supreme diety?

 

[Riverwolf]

People of those times did not view infants and children the same way we do. At that time, they were considered property and a sign of wealth. Therefore, a modern equivalent would be taking away a personal piece of work, not killing babies.

For example, causing a corporation to go under, with the founders getting absolutely nothing for it.

 

[emptybe]

People of those times did not view infants and children the same way we do. At that time, they were considered property and a sign of wealth. Therefore, a modern equivalent would be taking away a personal piece of work, not killing babies.

For example, causing a corporation to go under, with the founders getting absolutely nothing for it.

The people saw it that way maybe, but we are talking about God. Are you saying God sees us as property and a sign of wealth?

 

[outhouse]

(Note: This new thread has been moved from Christian DIR. I'm new in here and did not know I could not debate in that area. Sorry to those who were kind enough to respond.)

I am confused about something concerning the Christ story, and maybe you can help.

Why did all those babies have to die by Herod's hand after Christ was born?

This has always bothered me. Couldn't God have just been born like any other child without causing the slaughter of a bunch of innocents? Christ's birth was foreordained by God, if Christinity is true; so clearly God knew Christ's birth would result in that massacre, right? If we have any doubt about God's knowledge of Christ's harrowing escape from death during infancy, we need only read this in Mathew:

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

"Angel of the Lord," makes it perfectly clear to me that God knew full well what was going on there in Judea.

Further, there exists in the "Word of God" passages that speak of God's Omniscience:

1John, 3:19-20
Job 37:16
Psalms 147:5
Proverbs 15:3
Mathew 10:29

To offer just a few.

Herod did the killing, but with God's foreknowledge. Now, millions of babies are born every year without causing a slaughter, so why could God not have done the same? Does God not care about babies? Why do Christians rarely speak of these babies and their pained mothers who suffered for the sake of Christ's birth?

Most importantly: How can I have faith in the idea that the Christian God can offer me salvation for all eternity, when that same God couldn't even do what billions of mothers have done naturally? and be born without causing the slaughter of a bunch of babies. Is the Christian God really as inept as He seems, or am I just missing something?

Thanks

just a possibility

the story is fiction based on tragic events of the time they did not understand.

with reality in mind there was a volcano that may have let allot of gas out at that exact time in history

if you know about this gas you would know it stays low.

young boys slept on the floor in that particular culture

as a direct result of the gas the young males would have died

 

[WanderingSoul]

I'm pretty sure that God can do whatever He wants... So choosing to go the route of killing babies doesn't make much sense to me when he could just snap his fingers and save us all.

I respect that answer, and am inclined to agree.

But on what do you base your consclusion. Is it just a gut feeling about what you think a creator God would or COULD do? or do you have some Godly source upon which you base your views? like maybe ...the bible?

And what do you mean, "save us all"? From what? eternal damnation?

 

[Zelar]

I'm pretty sure that God can do whatever He wants... So choosing to go the route of killing babies doesn't make much sense to me when he could just snap his fingers and save us all.

Exactly. That point right there irrefutably disproves the existence of an
All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Compassionate God.

Suffering is supposedly for our benefit and for the better of the world, but God should be able to bring about this "benefit" we are supposed to get from suffering without the suffering. For example... breath oxygen > get spiritual growth... no need for suffering. He could even do it without us having to do anything, like you said. He has to have other options than by suffering. If he does not, it can not be accepted that he is All-Powerful.

 

[Riverwolf]

The people saw it that way maybe, but we are talking about God. Are you saying God sees us as property and a sign of wealth?

I don't know what God sees us as. But I'm of the opinion that if God does, in fact, give these teachings Himself, then He has to speak to the culture in question. Otherwise, nobody will listen to him.

 

[WanderingSoul]

just a possibility

the story is fiction based on tragic events of the time they did not understand.

with reality in mind there was a volcano that may have let allot of gas out at that exact time in history

if you know about this gas you would know it stays low.

young boys slept on the floor in that particular culture

as a direct result of the gas the young males would have died

Okay, so you think it's a fiction, based on "tragic events" they did not understand at the time. Fair enough. I interpret that to mean then, that you believe that the true God (if one exists) would not have conjured a plan of salvation for humanity if it required a baby genocide, right?

That's great, thanks. I'm not the only one then that thinks that's pretty darn silly, that a creator being would find it necessary to cause the death of a bunch of cute, giggling, loving () babies for no good reason.

I wonder then just how much of the Christ story IS a fiction? Don't Christians ever ask these questions?

 

[diosangpastol]

(Note: This new thread has been moved from Christian DIR. I'm new in here and did not know I could not debate in that area. Sorry to those who were kind enough to respond.)

I am confused about something concerning the Christ story, and maybe you can help.

Why did all those babies have to die by Herod's hand after Christ was born?

This has always bothered me. Couldn't God have just been born like any other child without causing the slaughter of a bunch of innocents? Christ's birth was foreordained by God, if Christinity is true; so clearly God knew Christ's birth would result in that massacre, right? If we have any doubt about God's knowledge of Christ's harrowing escape from death during infancy, we need only read this in Mathew:

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

"Angel of the Lord," makes it perfectly clear to me that God knew full well what was going on there in Judea.

Further, there exists in the "Word of God" passages that speak of God's Omniscience:

1John, 3:19-20
Job 37:16
Psalms 147:5
Proverbs 15:3
Mathew 10:29

To offer just a few.

Herod did the killing, but with God's foreknowledge. Now, millions of babies are born every year without causing a slaughter, so why could God not have done the same? Does God not care about babies? Why do Christians rarely speak of these babies and their pained mothers who suffered for the sake of Christ's birth?

Most importantly: How can I have faith in the idea that the Christian God can offer me salvation for all eternity, when that same God couldn't even do what billions of mothers have done naturally? and be born without causing the slaughter of a bunch of babies. Is the Christian God really as inept as He seems, or am I just missing something?

Thanks

if something went wrong with human lives...God have all the credits...this is the only time they can even remember him...

try this verse where God said that human do things not in his way...

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

 

[WanderingSoul]

(This is a previous reply given to a poster before this thread was moved to this debate section of the forum. I felt it was worthwhile to move it here)


Friend, I'm not talking "theology" here; I'm talking commonsense love and Godliness. I'm not trying to square a circle, I'm just puzzled as to why an omniscient/omnipotent God would stumble into history like a big, dumb gorilla and cause the slaughter of a bunch of cute babies for no good reason.

Let the children come to me; do not hinder them.” . . . And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them. (Mark 10:14-16)

"Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me." (Mark 9:37)

"Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3-4)

This is Jesus talking here, the same "man" whose birth caused a baby genocide. Amazing that he did not at some time in his ministry pay tribute to them and their mothers for their sacrifice. Even more amazing is the unspoken audacity of him to speak so lovinly of children, when he himself caused the death of so many.