YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
2 Corinthians 13 says it all. Thank you. Bye for now...
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Who Or What Is Israel?
- Thread starter Elihoenai
- Start date
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
Genesis 32:28
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
The Identity of Israel is the Identity of a Nation that has Prevailed. Without having Prevailed the Nation of Israel does Not Exist. What has the Nation of Israel Prevailed Over?
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
The Identity of Israel is the Identity of a Nation that has Prevailed. Without having Prevailed the Nation of Israel does Not Exist. What has the Nation of Israel Prevailed Over?
Elijah2
Member
Hardly - Did you know in the 3000 year old proto-Dueteronomy scrolls translated in 2021 - each of the Ten Decrees ends with:
"I am Elohim, your god." ???? In it he claims to be God of gods. What I said is true, and Judaism altered their accounts long ago, and the religion relies on Rabbinical glosses - not the real words of God. I've been an independent Bible student for over 60 years, from the best of Christian and Jewish records - such as Eisenman, James Tabor, Idan Dershowitz, Jonatan Adler - and many more - most enjoyable were the ones from Harvard level studies. I know what I'm talking about - you can believe what you want - but God and Jesus are my Teachers.
Elijah2
Member
Read these three books: The Valediction of Moses, by Idan Dershowitz; The Origins of Judaism, by Jonatan Adler; and The Moses Scroll, by Ross Nichols - then perhaps "The Dismembered Bible" by Idan Dershowitz. Judaism did not begin until 444 BC, all the Hebrew Scripture we have were written thereafter because all the previous records were gone. The Valediction scroll was hidden in a cave is the only reason we had that one!! It proves Rabbinical Judaism is a total lie, just like Jesus said.
Elijah2
Member
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not really as what we call "Judaism" was very gradual and long in transition, thus drawing arbitrary lines really doesn't work well at all. According to BAR, it appears to have gradually developed as a "cult of YHWH" from the southern Arabian Peninsula and brought north probably by Jewish traders.
Elijah2
Member
All the promises of God to Israel were fulfilled eons ago. The modern State of Israel is not based on God or His words or promises, but upon the lies told in the name of God by atheist Jews who formulated the plans for the modern state back in the 1800's. Also, if records matter, God spoke about those who bless or curse Abraham - not Israel. The Jewish accounts, as the ones in Christianity, are hopelessly flawed.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
IndigoChild is right here. Elohim is a term that is attributed to the God of gods, the Almighty. Not multiple.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
thank you. A breath of fresh air.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I do agree that the founding fathers of the modern state of Israel were not necessarily believers of the one true God. The kingdom of God is that which is to yet be fulfilled.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Thank you so much for this! I went and researched the Shapira scrolls. I see that they are very controversial; the most common opinion is that they are forgeries, but there are those experts such as Dershowitz who think they are genuine. I was not able to confirm their age. And most disapointing was that I could not find the actual text of its 10 commandments. However, MOST interesting.
If it is in fact a Proto-Deuteronomy, I would not be surprised, as it would fit with my view that the Torah was originally many documents that changed over time until they were spliced together later in history to their present form.
Elijah2
Member
I can site proof for all the claims you decreed "false". Scriptural and historical proof - both.
Where are your proofs? What are they? *Staff Edit*
Last edited by a moderator:
Elijah2
Member
I have the translation on my web site somewhere on almost every page.
Also did a consolidated listing - each commandment listed with each given blessing statement and cursed statement to show how they should be viewed to know and observe good from evil - they should be seen as a unit whole.
One Disciple to Another
Introduction to all the teachings of Jesus Christ. The need to hear Jesus Christ as Teacher is important for every Christian. It isn't so much What would Jesus do, but what did Jesus say.
onediscipletoanother.org
Elijah2
Member
I am Elohim, your god, who freed you from the land of Egypt, from the slave-house. You shall not have any other gods. You shall not make a carving or any image that is in the heavens above or the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth. You shall not prostrate yourselves before them, and you shall not serve them. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who has Elohim as his god, and who prostrates himself only to him, and who serves him alone. Cursed is the man who does a carving or a casting, the handiwork of a craftsman.
Sanctify the seventh day and rest on it. For in six days I made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and I rested on the seventh day. Therefore you too shall rest, along with your livestock and all that you have. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who sanctifies the seventh day and rests on it. Cursed is the man who does work on the seventh day.
Honor your father and your mother. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is he who honors his father and his mother. Cursed is he who disgraces his father and mother.
You shall not slay the soul of your brother. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not avenge or exact retribution for the soul of his brother. Cursed is he who strikes down his fellow in secret.
You shall not commit adultery with the woman of your fellow. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not defile the woman of his fellow. Cursed is the man who approaches any of his kin, or who commits adultery with the woman of his fellow, or who copulates with any animal.
You shall not steal the property of your brother. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not cheat his fellow. Cursed is he who moves the boundary marker of his fellow.
You shall not swear in my name falsely (or to deceive), for I shall avenge the transgression of the fathers against the sons, grandsons, and great grandsons for those who bear my name falsely. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not swear in my name falsely. Cursed is the man who swears falsely in my name.
You shall not submit against your fellow a false judgment. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not deceive or lie to his fellow. Cursed is he who takes a bribe to give false judgment against his comrade.
You shall not desire the woman of your fellow, his male servant, his female servant, or anything that is his. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is he who does not lust after anyone belonging to his fellow. Cursed is the man who desires and lusts after the woman of his fellow, his daughter, his female servant, or anything that is his.
You shall not hate your brother in your heart. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who loves his fellow. Cursed is the man who hates his brother in his heart.
Sanctify the seventh day and rest on it. For in six days I made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and I rested on the seventh day. Therefore you too shall rest, along with your livestock and all that you have. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who sanctifies the seventh day and rests on it. Cursed is the man who does work on the seventh day.
Honor your father and your mother. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is he who honors his father and his mother. Cursed is he who disgraces his father and mother.
You shall not slay the soul of your brother. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not avenge or exact retribution for the soul of his brother. Cursed is he who strikes down his fellow in secret.
You shall not commit adultery with the woman of your fellow. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not defile the woman of his fellow. Cursed is the man who approaches any of his kin, or who commits adultery with the woman of his fellow, or who copulates with any animal.
You shall not steal the property of your brother. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not cheat his fellow. Cursed is he who moves the boundary marker of his fellow.
You shall not swear in my name falsely (or to deceive), for I shall avenge the transgression of the fathers against the sons, grandsons, and great grandsons for those who bear my name falsely. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not swear in my name falsely. Cursed is the man who swears falsely in my name.
You shall not submit against your fellow a false judgment. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who does not deceive or lie to his fellow. Cursed is he who takes a bribe to give false judgment against his comrade.
You shall not desire the woman of your fellow, his male servant, his female servant, or anything that is his. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is he who does not lust after anyone belonging to his fellow. Cursed is the man who desires and lusts after the woman of his fellow, his daughter, his female servant, or anything that is his.
You shall not hate your brother in your heart. I am Elohim, your god. Blessed is the man who loves his fellow. Cursed is the man who hates his brother in his heart.
It is these ten pronouncements that Elohim uttered to you upon the mountain from amid the fire. Blessed is the man who upholds all the proclamations of this teaching to perform them. Cursed is the man who does not uphold all the proclamations of this teaching to perform them.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Wow, insulting people in the name of Jesus.
Well, maybe study these messianic references:
MESSIANIC REFERENCES:
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 34:31
31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.
Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Gentiles Must Realise/Acknowledge that the House of Israel is a Lost Sheep. Given that the Elohim/God of Israel is not Elohim/God, Israel does Not exist. The Elohim/God of Israel is Elohim/God when his Laws are Obeyed with Total Devotion.
Merneptah Stele
"...Israel is laid waste—its seed is no more;.."
en.wikipedia.org
31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.
Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Gentiles Must Realise/Acknowledge that the House of Israel is a Lost Sheep. Given that the Elohim/God of Israel is not Elohim/God, Israel does Not exist. The Elohim/God of Israel is Elohim/God when his Laws are Obeyed with Total Devotion.
Merneptah Stele
"...Israel is laid waste—its seed is no more;.."
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It is simply referring to sinful Jews.
Koberstein
*Banned*
We can learn about rebirth from Israel's history. They went into Egypt with seventy
individuals, Exodus 1 tells us: "Now these are the names of Bnei-Yisrael who came
into Egypt with Jacob, each man with his family.....The souls that came out of the
line numbered 70 in all, while Joseph was already in Egypt" (vv. 1,5). Consider that
Israel went in as a group of only 70 souls but came out numbering in the millions!
The word for Egypt in Hebrew is Mitzraim, "a place of confinement or restriction."
Mitzraim comes from the root word tzur, which means "rock." In Jewish thought,
Egypt is considered the womb of civilization. The people in Israel was in exile for
about four hundred years. Four hundred is a multiple of forty. And forty weeks is
a full term pregnancy. So, they were in Egypt symbolically as a full term
pregnancy----not weeks but years. Egypt was the womb. The ten plagues brought
on the Egyptians were labor pains, the shaking and quaking. When the Israelites
left Egypt, they went in great haste. (This is one of the reasons we eat matzah,
unleavened bread---they left so quickly that their bread did not have time to rise.)
They were instructed to eat Passover with their loins girded and their staffs in hand.
Pregnancy can seem to be taking forever for expectant parents, and then boom!
The baby comes---often with little warning, in the middle of the night or while we
are fully engaged in something else. We can use the human birth process as an
analogy for the birth of Israel. The parting of the Red Sea was like the woman's
water breaking. Israel going through the Red Sea was like the baby going through
the birth canal. The water closing in on the Egyptian army after Israel had passed
is symbolic of God washing away their past. The old was passing away, and the new
was coming. The water closed, and they could not go back to Egypt. He was birthing
them from an enslaved people into a redeemed free nation.
As Israel could not physically return to Egypt, neither can we physically return to our
mothers' wombs. The people of Israel was born naturally with some divine intervention.
To grow as a nation---the people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob---twelve tribes had to have
a physical birth. But they were not born supernaturally as a free nation until they escaped
Egypt. And so they had two births. They were naturally birthed through Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob, and they went to Egypt. God used their time in Egypt to birth them as a redeemed
nation and caused a supernatural multiplication---incredibly, from seventy to millions.
This is what we read in Exodus 1:6-7:
"Then Joseph died, as did all his brothers and all that generation. Yet Bnei-Yisrael were fruitful,
increased abundantly, multiplied and grew extremely numerous---so the land was filled with
them"
Shalom
Koberstein
*Banned*
We can learn about rebirth from Israel's history. They went into Egypt with seventy
individuals, Exodus 1 tells us: "Now these are the names of Bnei-Yisrael who came
into Egypt with Jacob, each man with his family.....The souls that came out of the
line numbered 70 in all, while Joseph was already in Egypt" (vv. 1,5). Consider that
Israel went in as a group of only 70 souls but came out numbering in the millions!
The word for Egypt in Hebrew is Mitzraim, "a place of confinement or restriction."
Mitzraim comes from the root word tzur, which means "rock." In Jewish thought,
Egypt is considered the womb of civilization. The people in Israel was in exile for
about four hundred years. Four hundred is a multiple of forty. And forty weeks is
a full term pregnancy. So, they were in Egypt symbolically as a full term
pregnancy----not weeks but years. Egypt was the womb. The ten plagues brought
on the Egyptians were labor pains, the shaking and quaking. When the Israelites
left Egypt, they went in great haste. (This is one of the reasons we eat matzah,
unleavened bread---they left so quickly that their bread did not have time to rise.)
They were instructed to eat Passover with their loins girded and their staffs in hand.
Pregnancy can seem to be taking forever for expectant parents, and then boom!
The baby comes---often with little warning, in the middle of the night or while we
are fully engaged in something else. We can use the human birth process as an
analogy for the birth of Israel. The parting of the Red Sea was like the woman's
water breaking. Israel going through the Red Sea was like the baby going through
the birth canal. The water closing in on the Egyptian army after Israel had passed
is symbolic of God washing away their past. The old was passing away, and the new
was coming. The water closed, and they could not go back to Egypt. He was birthing
them from an enslaved people into a redeemed free nation.
As Israel could not physically return to Egypt, neither can we physically return to our
mothers' wombs. The people of Israel was born naturally with some divine intervention.
To grow as a nation---the people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob---twelve tribes had to have
a physical birth. But they were not born supernaturally as a free nation until they escaped
Egypt. And so they had two births. They were naturally birthed through Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob, and they went to Egypt. God used their time in Egypt to birth them as a redeemed
nation and caused a supernatural multiplication---incredibly, from seventy to millions.
This is what we read in Exodus 1:6-7:
"Then Joseph died, as did all his brothers and all that generation. Yet Bnei-Yisrael were fruitful,
increased abundantly, multiplied and grew extremely numerous---so the land was filled with
them"
Shalom