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Who taught Christianity to Paul?

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Hi Ingledsva, those, your words, may be very tasty for you some day. KB


Dude - you give answers like this --


K.B. - "...It is not in any of their commentaries, neither is it written about in any denomination's literature (at least to the best of my knowledge). You see, this information is only seen and understood by those to whom Elohim desires to see and understand it.Your mind has to be "opened" to "see," yet even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again."


-- and you actually expect people in a scriptural debate to take you seriously?


I forgot to add - this debate started with you saying in post 261 -


K.B. - "Hi outhouse, then WHY do the writings of Moses show the suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection of Yeshua?"


I asked you where in Tanakh this is, - and got your ridiculous answer above - stating that they aren't there - after you said they were.




*
 
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Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Dude - you give answers like this --

K.B. - "...It is not in any of their commentaries, neither is it written about in any denomination's literature (at least to the best of my knowledge). You see, this information is only seen and understood by those to whom Elohim desires to see and understand it.Your mind has to be "opened" to "see," yet even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again."

-- and you actually expect people in a scriptural debate to take you seriously?

I forgot to add - this debate started with you saying in post 261 -

K.B. - "Hi outhouse, then WHY do the writings of Moses show the suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection of Yeshua?"

I asked you where in Tanakh this is, - and got your ridiculous answer above - stating that they aren't there - after you said they were.*

Hi Ingledsva, my answer was in the lower half of my post, but it appears that Ezekiel speaks of your ability to "see" and "hear," here:

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house.

KB
 

outhouse

Atheistically
, my answer was in the lower half of my post, but it appears that Ezekiel speaks of your ability to "see" and "hear," here:

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house.

KB

Which has nothing to do with the reality of REAL history.

You try and push your opinion as credible after stating its all in your personal imagination.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Hi outhouse, and your words may become a tasty meal for you also, someday.

Life is for the living, just because some people are deathly afraid because they have little life left, doesn't mean the rest have to a tremble with them.

Your idle threat, from poor opinion is laughable, as you try and place judgment on me :rolleyes:




Now, why is it that ALL commentators and professors fail to "see" and "understand"


Stop right there.


You DO NOT have the credibility to denounce professors, who do you think you are? :slap:
 

Boyd

Member
Was or was not Judaism multi cultural?
I think we need to be a bit careful with this line of questioning. Yes, Judaism was multi-cultural. But what does that really mean? Judaism was multi-cultural because Jews were multi-cultural. They were influenced, as everyone is, by a variety of cultures. There were Jewish populations in diverse areas as well. So yes, they were multi-cultural, but what does it really mean.
Were there not factual divisions in Judaism. "Sects"
There were divisions. And most did not fall into any of the "major" divisions, as mentioned by Josephus.

And within each division, there were more divisions. Judaism was somewhat fluid, and often entertained a great deal of interfaith debate and dialogue.
Does the bible not mention divisions of more Hellenistic sects from more traditional sects?
Is the Bible a good source for this though? The Hebrew Bible has a tendency to try to make Judaism look as if it was a unified whole, when it clearly was not. The authors also were not above polemics.

In the NT, only twice are "Hellenists" mentioned, as in Hellenistic Jews, and both times it is within a polemic. So it is not a credible source of information. Especially when the term seems to really serve no purpose but to be derogatory.

If we use the definition of Hellenist, as Legion gave, it was a Jew who spoke Greek. But clearly, in this instance, even those who were against the "Hellenists" (the "Hebrews" in Acts), knew Greek enough to converse with them. So it seems, again, to be useless.

The NT simply is not a good source to really delve into the idea of different divisions of Judaism, as it really is full of polemic. The description we get of Pharisees, for instance, is quite incompatible with what we actually know.
Were Galilean Jews, Zealots who did not use Greek, less Hellenized then those in Jerusalem and Sepphoris who spoke Greek?
Zealots, from what can be known about them, were not from Galilee. They functioned in Judea.

We don't know if they used Greek or not. There is no reason to think they didn't though. It wasn't against Hellenism that they were rebelling. It was against Rome, and those who collaborated with the Romans. The Roman language was Latin.

It also appears that the Zealots were often located in Jerusalem, as that is where much of their activity is seen. Where they less Hellenized than some other Jews? Sure, but they were still Hellenized.
Did most Jews hate the Saducees?
I wouldn't say so. Yes, there was disputes, and differences, but that does not translate to hate.

And that is neither here nor there. Would it matter if people hated the Sadducees? No. Because people hate the social elite and people in charge today as well. It doesn't distinguish who they actually were.
Did Galileans hate them more?
Who knows. That answer really can't be answered as we don't have much writing about the Sadducees to make a rational conclusion, nor do we have much writing about Galileans either. To make a conclusion would be hasty.
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Life is for the living, just because some people are deathly afraid because they have little life left, doesn't mean the rest have to a tremble with them.

Your idle threat, from poor opinion is laughable, as you try and place judgment on me :rolleyes:

Stop right there.


You DO NOT have the credibility to denounce professors, who do you think you are? :slap:

Hi outhouse, I'm just an old carpenter that has the Spirit of Elohim. With that Spirit, your professors are at a distinct disadvantage, and I suppose that is why you are fearful to bring one in and debate Romans 5:15? KB
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Hi outhouse, I'm just an old carpenter that has the Spirit of Elohim. With that Spirit, your professors are at a distinct disadvantage, and I suppose that is why you are fearful to bring one in and debate Romans 5:15? KB

You cannot debate theology, when you cannot even debate known credible history.

Just because you have the "spirit" does not mean you are more credible then a professor. In fact it usually proves only bias.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
*
Dude - you give answers like this --

K.B. - "...It is not in any of their commentaries, neither is it written about in any denomination's literature (at least to the best of my knowledge). You see, this information is only seen and understood by those to whom Elohim desires to see and understand it.Your mind has to be "opened" to "see," yet even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again."

-- and you actually expect people in a scriptural debate to take you seriously?

I forgot to add - this debate started with you saying in post 261 -

K.B. - "Hi outhouse, then WHY do the writings of Moses show the suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection of Yeshua?"

I asked you where in Tanakh this is, - and got your ridiculous answer above - stating that they aren't there - after you said they were.
Hi Ingledsva, my answer was in the lower half of my post, but it appears that Ezekiel speaks of your ability to "see" and "hear," here:

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house.

KB


LOL! Did you miss this; - Christians quote-mine Tanakh looking for any vague thing they might say is about Jesus?


It is not in Tanakh - you folks are adding your own ideas to the texts.


They DO NOT say what you say, they say, or mean.


If it doesn't say it - you are more then likely making it up, for your own purposes.



Forgot to add - The Foundation of Torah - is for the Jewish faith and has nothing to do with the Christian Jesus - as they have stated over-and-over!


Also - obviously - you don't realize that several red heifers have already been used for sacrifice/purification.



*
 
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Boyd

Member
Galileans are all known as Zealots.

Galilean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Generically, a Galilean is an inhabitant of Galilee. Galileans (or Galilæans) were also the members of a fanatical sect (Zealots),


During the Great Rebellion (66-70 CE) the Galileans and Idumeans were the most adamant fighters against Rome; they fought the Romans to the death when many Judeans were ready to accept peace terms.
When I open up that Wikipedia article, it states that it needs to be cleaned up because it doesn't mean quality standards. First impressions tell me that it isn't a quality article.

Looking at the part you quoted, there is no actual source to back up the claim, thus I can't take it very seriously.

Going further, when I click on the link to the article on the Zealots, that article contradicts what the article you linked to says, where it states that Zealots were active in Judea.

Looking at the Jewish Encyclopedia, which you have mentioned before, it also states that Zealots were from or in Judea.

It seems to be somewhat agreed upon that Judas of Galilee or of Gamala began, it was in reaction to the census issued by Quirinus. This would have had no effect on Galilee, as it was not under direct Roman rule, and thus, no census would have been issued there. It would have effected Judea though, giving even more reason to place the Zealots, and their beginning in Judea; away from Galilee.

In addition, during the revolt, the Zealots were said to have been stationed in Jerusalem, and in fact, were said to have taken it over.

Finally, Judas of Galilee was not the only individual who is said to have started the Zealots. Zadok the Pharisee is said to have teamed up with Judas, and together, they founded the movement. This is troublesome for the article you linked to as it implies that "Galilean Zealots" and "Judean Pharisees" were opposed to each other. The problem is that it was partially Pharisaic ideology that helped fuel the Zealots.

The article just is not good.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No Boyd.

Herods buolding projects in Sepphoris and Tiberious were laid upon the common peasant.

People forced off farm land and they still paid taxes on it all. It was a very tough time to be a oppressed Jew.

No reason for traditional Jews looking at the rich opulance of the Hellenistic Jews in Sepphoris not to hold some kind of hatred and resentment.


As I told you before, residents of Sepphoris were araid of the typical Gailean oppressed Jew, because they worked hand in hand as oppressors and lived a rich lifestyle at the expense of these peasants.


There was no middle class, the very poor and the very rich, and Sepphoris was home to the very very rich.
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
LOL! Did you miss this; - Christians quote-mine Tanakh looking for any vague thing they might say is about Jesus?

It is not in Tanakh - you folks are adding your own ideas to the texts.

They DO NOT say what you say, they say, or mean.

If it doesn't say it - you are more then likely making it up, for your own purposes.

Forgot to add - The Foundation of Torah - is for the Jewish faith and has nothing to do with the Christian Jesus - as they have stated over-and-over!

Also - obviously - you don't realize that several red heifers have already been used for sacrifice/purification.*

Hi Inglesdva, you just need to wait for a while longer as the majority of True Believers in Yeshua, will be Jewish.

Rom 11:25-26 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Yes, the Nation of Israel will no longer be hardened, and their blindness will be lifted, and they will mourn for Him whom them have pierced, and truly "see" and "understand" what Moses says concerning Him. The Foundation of The Torah, where Moses wrote about Yeshua, will be THE Ordinance which turns them as traditional christianity and all other forms of religion, will continue in their denial of the Truth! KB
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
You cannot debate theology, when you cannot even debate known credible history.

Just because you have the "spirit" does not mean you are more credible then a professor. In fact it usually proves only bias.

Hi outhouse, it is amazing that non of your vaulted professors want to come in and help you out with this high school graduate. Sort of reminds me of this Scripture:

Lev 26:7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

KB
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Hi Inglesdva, you just need to wait for a while longer as the majority of True Believers in Yeshua, will be Jewish.

Rom 11:25-26 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Yes, the Nation of Israel will no longer be hardened, and their blindness will be lifted, and they will mourn for Him whom them have pierced, and truly "see" and "understand" what Moses says concerning Him. The Foundation of The Torah, where Moses wrote about Yeshua, will be THE Ordinance which turns them as traditional christianity and all other forms of religion, will continue in their denial of the Truth! KB


And again - this is what you think - it is not fact.


According to the Jews, Jesus does not fulfill their Messiah prophecies, and they should know.



As to Zech 12:10 - It does not say pierced. I suggest you go to a Jewish site for the translation of that one.


The Septuagint gets closer to the correct meaning, though it is still a poor translation.
....

Zechariah 12:10B (i) (LXX).. - and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me -
....

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion: and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved friend, and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn son.


mocked - reviled


*
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Hi outhouse, it is amazing that non of your vaulted professors want to come in and help you out with this high school graduate. Sort of reminds me of this Scripture:

Lev 26:7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

KB


Why would I waist any more of my time with your old nonsense?

Your so far off topic, its not even funny
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Hi outhouse, I'm just an old carpenter that has the Spirit of Elohim. With that Spirit, your professors are at a distinct disadvantage, and I suppose that is why you are fearful to bring one in and debate Romans 5:15? KB


Why are you writing such ridiculous crap? We don't have to bring in professors.


What exactly do you wish to discuss concerning Romans 5:15?



ROMANS 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.



*
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Hi outhouse, it is amazing that non of your vaulted professors want to come in and help you out with this high school graduate. Sort of reminds me of this Scripture:

Lev 26:7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

KB

Professors, enemies...mmhmm? Confused this one seems :yoda:
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Why are you writing such ridiculous crap? We don't have to bring in professors.

What exactly do you wish to discuss concerning Romans 5:15?

ROMANS 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. *

Hi Ingledsva, great, I'm glad you are willing. Rom 5:14 states that Adam is a "type" or "figure" of the coming One. Rom 5:15 states HOW Adam is a "type" or "figure" of the coming One. Do you "see" it? Or are you like outhouse and his professors which tries to show a CONTRAST, not a similarity, between Adam and the coming One? KB
 

Boyd

Member
No Boyd.

Herods buolding projects in Sepphoris and Tiberious were laid upon the common peasant.

People forced off farm land and they still paid taxes on it all. It was a very tough time to be a oppressed Jew.
I never said anything against this though. However, it doesn't factor into what I was saying. And it really doesn't factor into the Zealots, as it was only later, over a decade after the death of Herod, that they supposedly rose up (some place their rising even further off), and it wasn't in response to anything in Galilee, but something in Judea.

Also, the building projects were laid upon everyone. Yes, the "peasants" would have taken a large share of this, but that is only because they were the most populous group. Also, the taxation that was occurring here was not Roman taxation. It was Jewish taxation. Herod was the "King of the Jews," a client king.

I'm not saying it wasn't a tough time, but it doesn't really factor into what I was saying.
No reason for traditional Jews looking at the rich opulance of the Hellenistic Jews in Sepphoris not to hold some kind of hatred and resentment.
But the problem is that there is no such thing as a traditional Jew. All Jews were Hellenistic. And not all Jews in Sepphoris were rich. Many would have been the same sort of peasant that lived outside of Sepphoris.

The distinction you are making simply doesn't actually exist.
As I told you before, residents of Sepphoris were araid of the typical Gailean oppressed Jew, because they worked hand in hand as oppressors and lived a rich lifestyle at the expense of these peasants.
You never supported this though. It also ignores that Sepphoris was not attached to Rome. Sepphoris, as all of Galilee, was not ruled directly by Rome, but by a client king. So there is a big difference.

More so, to believe all of the residents of Sepphoris were rich simply isn't logical. We are talking about a city with a fairly large population. There is no way they could all have been rich.

Second, it ignores the reality of any city. Yes, there were probably some wealthy individuals there, but as in all cities, there would have been the poor and destitute. Sepphoris wasn't some unique city where only the rich dwelled.

It also ignores the history of Sepphoris. As in, Sepphoris having been a center of rebellion against Rome after Herod the Great died. So it isn't a big wonder as to why they did not join the First Jewish War. It wanted peace, as did many villages and cities in Galilee. It would also be to Sepphoris where many Jews would settle after the war. As in, individuals who fought against Rome settled in Sepphoris, where it became a center for Jewish spiritual life.

This did annoy some Jews in the surrounding area, as they were preparing for war and Sepphoris refused. That is only understandable when one has the mentality of it being us or them. But that simply didn't last long. And again, there were many in Galilee who refused to fight.
There was no middle class, the very poor and the very rich, and Sepphoris was home to the very very rich.
It was also home to the poor. To the beggars, lepers, "peasants," etc. It wasn't just a center of wealth.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
But the problem is that there is no such thing as a traditional Jew. All Jews were Hellenistic. .

There were factually diferent degrees of Hellenism.

Those Aramaic speaking Jews in Galilee were not as Hellenized as say the rich people in Sepphoris.

Galileans were not as Hellenized as the Saducees.


And there were traditional born and raised Israelites, who were not Romans worshipping Judaism now called Jews.

Israelites were enemies to their oppressors whom many also ended up being Jews in this multi cultural environment . You cannot get around his my friend.
 
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