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Who took society's spine?

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Was it Christianity? The governments of the world? Hollywood? I've noticed something admirable in the "enemies of free people", they tell it like it is. Anyone doubt that Iran hates America? No, because they have the spine to let the world know. Within our society I've noticed people would rather ignore you then be straight with you, dance around emotions, they like to keep this peaceful seeming stance yet really they are almost always stupid, selfish, and spineless. They sit on a high horse while actually accomplishing nothing. I have also noticed people would rather have a mansion full of **** handed to them than a shelf full of things they've earned. Where does this pathetic and socially unevolved disposition arise from? It's too wide spread to be individually psychological. Hell I don't know about you all but I make it a goal to be straight with people as well as do things to help others with no reward other than self respect.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So... if I'm understanding this correctly here:

If a person chooses not to throw the stone in the pond, they're stupid, selfish, and spineless? Pardon, but I'm not quite following.

Some people don't like creating pointless, unnecessary drama in their lives or that of others; some battles are simply not worth fighting, and it can be a mark of wisdom and discernment to know when to shut your mouth.

Some people wish to cultivate a virtuous personal character that includes offering basic civil decency, tact, and manners to all people with no (or few) exceptions, and it's an awful lot easier to get along with other people when you're not a $#@% to them all the time.

Some people find that words themselves are empty and hollow, thus not worth wasting; you don't speak your grievances, you act on them, and one way of doing so is by ignoring the person and shutting them out of your life completely.

Some people are incapable of being both straight and blunt while tactful at the same time, so they wisely choose silence.

Lots of possible explanations, given there's lots of different folks and habits and experiences. But really, I would never make the assumption that silence means someone is a coward, mentally deficient, or self-centered. That just doesn't make any sense to me, sorry. :shrug:
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Addendum: all that said, I do feel that we live in a culture of cowards, just... not with respect to what you've brought up in the OP. And even though I say that, I recognize that phrasing it that way is being unduly harsh.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It's not about throwing a stone in the pond it's about owning up to youe emotions and actions.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Q,
Say you and I have been dating a year or so. You love me, and you feel I love you. This not the case though. I care, I don't want to hurt you, but I certainly do not feel the same about you anymore. So I'll create a rift, I'll sparingly see you and I'll ignore your texts, hoping you get the point without me directly hurting you, not having to own up to my emotions, etc. How is this not spineless?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not about throwing a stone in the pond it's about owning up to youe emotions and actions.

I don't see the two as disconnected. How you express your emotions and sentiments through actions - at least with one of the examples you gave of Iran supposedly hating the United States - results in throwing stones in the pond and making ripples in someone else's life. Individual actions have an affect on the larger whole, and this is why I can't see the two as disconnected. One can acknowledge one's emotions and sentiments without taking actions that violently churn up someone else's pond. Why might one do that? Depends on the character of the individual; some possibilities I listed in my last longer post.

Q,
Say you and I have been dating a year or so. You love me, and you feel I love you. This not the case though. I care, I don't want to hurt you, but I certainly do not feel the same about you anymore. So I'll create a rift, I'll sparingly see you and I'll ignore your texts, hoping you get the point without me directly hurting you, not having to own up to my emotions, etc. How is this not spineless?

Wow... this example, Doors... :thud: *laughs*

I don't consider that spineless, I consider it dishonest. As long as someone is doing what they feel is right, I would not call that cowardice. It is when someone is afraid to do what they feel is right, that I might call cowardice, particularly where the situation relates to bodily harm/pain, violence, and/or warfare. I don't regard mundane situations quite deserving of the label 'coward.' Must be Ares' influence on my mindset. :shrug:
 

ScottySatan

Well-Known Member
Aside from wealth-driven complacency, I have 2 partial answers, and both will make me sound like a crotchety old man.

1) I think it's partially from lawyers and lawsuits. Childrens' schools, colleges, governments, and corporations do their best to keep us all in sterile, padded cells for their own protection and it rubs off on us during our development. I'm in my early 30's but when I went to school, no one called the cops when you got into a fight, and peanut butter was served in the cafeteria.

2) your question reminds me: Not long ago, I spent a week sharing a hotel room in the US with a Frenchman. It was his first time to the country. After we had gotten to know each other pretty well, he asked me, "Why are American men so...", and he made the motion of grabbing a man's testicles and cutting them off. "They never say anything, they never show emotion, they are like neutered dogs". This particular Frenchman was pretty passionate about everything.

Knowing what events he was talking about that made him think this, the answer came to me right away. "In America, it is un-manly to show your emotion. My father would have ridiculed me and called me gay for expressing emotions the way southern europeans do." The characteristic that made him think American men were not manly, I was raised to think was the very essence of a man: stoicism.

The metrosexual thing is out and masculinity is making a comeback. We are not supposed to whine; complaining falls under whining. This is obviously a hyperbole, but I do notice it lately.
 
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FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
I feel like in America we are always in a state of "war" like something is always being fought for...to the point that we don't know how to not be at war.

There's a saying that a man must be as graceful in society as he is fierce on the battlefield (paraphrashing).
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
I believe that the reason partially has to do with scare tactics utilized by the military-industrial-intelligence complex in order to make civilians more complacent. Fear makes people behave strangely and readily give up liberties for the illusion of safety.

Enforcing political correctness and blind tolerance are also means of de-spining. Everybody is special for no reason and it's wrong to say otherwise. However, sometimes discrimination is appropriate after a certain period of suspended judgment and impartial investigation. Notions of equality and fairness are being abused in the U.S. culture beyond their philosophical utility. They're just causing a mass sense of entitlement and mediocrity now.
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
I think quite a bit of it has to do with this political correctness nonsense that has insidiously infiltrated society, and how we interact with one another. People are stand offish about saying what they really think for fear of offending some else's fragile sensibilities. "You hurt my feelings, so I'm going to sew you for emotional damages". That might be a stretch, but not that big of a stretch.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Was it Christianity? The governments of the world? Hollywood? I've noticed something admirable in the "enemies of free people", they tell it like it is. Anyone doubt that Iran hates America? No, because they have the spine to let the world know. Within our society I've noticed people would rather ignore you then be straight with you, dance around emotions, they like to keep this peaceful seeming stance yet really they are almost always stupid, selfish, and spineless. They sit on a high horse while actually accomplishing nothing. I have also noticed people would rather have a mansion full of **** handed to them than a shelf full of things they've earned. Where does this pathetic and socially unevolved disposition arise from? It's too wide spread to be individually psychological. Hell I don't know about you all but I make it a goal to be straight with people as well as do things to help others with no reward other than self respect.

Iran doesn't hate America, the Iranian government hates the American government. The societies of both cultures are just sheep led to the slaughter. But that maybe because the American government helped to overthrow the first democratically elected leader in Iran, who was going to nationalize the oil industry and spread the money amongst the people of Iran instead of directly to BP. Operation Ajax, check it out.

And personally, I'd rather have a mansion full of **** given to me, dependent upon who it is that is giving me the free mansion. I like to be straight with people too, and I don't like the sensitivity their is with certain subjects. But it really does no good to be too blunt in your opinions, because it essentially drives them futher into their sheepdom which only makes things worse.

Q,
Say you and I have been dating a year or so. You love me, and you feel I love you. This not the case though. I care, I don't want to hurt you, but I certainly do not feel the same about you anymore. So I'll create a rift, I'll sparingly see you and I'll ignore your texts, hoping you get the point without me directly hurting you, not having to own up to my emotions, etc. How is this not spineless?

So your basically saying if someone develops a physical dependency on another person who in turn has a physical dependency for the other person, that you can expect either "addict" to act courageously? What if you tell the other person the things you wan't them to change, and they refuse to do so "secretly". Is it "spineless" to continue these actions while seeing if the other person will change. I personally see it as the responsibility of the other person to choose whether they are willing to change, and act accordingly.

Aside from wealth-driven complacency, I have 2 partial answers, and both will make me sound like a crotchety old man.

1) I think it's partially from lawyers and lawsuits. Childrens' schools, colleges, governments, and corporations do their best to keep us all in sterile, padded cells for their own protection and it rubs off on us during our development. I'm in my early 30's but when I went to school, no one called the cops when you got into a fight, and peanut butter was served in the cafeteria.

2) your question reminds me: Not long ago, I spent a week sharing a hotel room in the US with a Frenchman. It was his first time to the country. After we had gotten to know each other pretty well, he asked me, "Why are American men so...", and he made the motion of grabbing a man's testicles and cutting them off. "They never say anything, they never show emotion, they are like neutered dogs". This particular Frenchman was pretty passionate about everything.

Knowing what events he was talking about that made him think this, the answer came to me right away. "In America, it is un-manly to show your emotion. My father would have ridiculed me and called me gay for expressing emotions the way southern europeans do." The characteristic that made him think American men were not manly, I was raised to think was the very essence of a man: stoicism.

The metrosexual thing is out and masculinity is making a comeback. We are not supposed to whine; complaining falls under whining. This is obviously a hyperbole, but I do notice it lately.

Great points.

I believe that the reason partially has to do with scare tactics utilized by the military-industrial-intelligence complex in order to make civilians more complacent. Fear makes people behave strangely and readily give up liberties for the illusion of safety.

:yes:

Enforcing political correctness and blind tolerance are also means of de-spining. Everybody is special for no reason and it's wrong to say otherwise. However, sometimes discrimination is appropriate after a certain period of suspended judgment and impartial investigation. Notions of equality and fairness are being abused in the U.S. culture beyond their philosophical utility. They're just causing a mass sense of entitlement and mediocrity now.

:yes:

I think quite a bit of it has to do with this political correctness nonsense that has insidiously infiltrated society, and how we interact with one another. People are stand offish about saying what they really think for fear of offending some else's fragile sensibilities. "You hurt my feelings, so I'm going to sew you for emotional damages". That might be a stretch, but not that big of a stretch.

This is my biggest erk. The two things that are most "taboo" to talk about in our society are politics and religion. Interstingly enough, they are also the two things that shape the majority of our reality.

Not gonna lie, herding the sheep in the opposite direction of the elite is the only hope we have. But I'd be lying if I didn't want to kill some of the damn sheep I'm trying to herd sometimes. :D
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I think quite a bit of it has to do with this political correctness nonsense that has insidiously infiltrated society, and how we interact with one another. People are stand offish about saying what they really think for fear of offending some else's fragile sensibilities. "You hurt my feelings, so I'm going to sew you for emotional damages". That might be a stretch, but not that big of a stretch.

Actually I don't think it's a stretch at all. The whole political correctness is simply insane. I understand it to an extent obviously, but these days it's wrong to even say you don't like someone, to say someone is wrong or mistaken, etc.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
It's not about throwing a stone in the pond it's about owning up to youe emotions and actions.

Q,
Say you and I have been dating a year or so. You love me, and you feel I love you. This not the case though. I care, I don't want to hurt you, but I certainly do not feel the same about you anymore. So I'll create a rift, I'll sparingly see you and I'll ignore your texts, hoping you get the point without me directly hurting you, not having to own up to my emotions, etc. How is this not spineless?
Wait. Are we to own up to our emotions, or yours?
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Actually I don't think it's a stretch at all. The whole political correctness is simply insane. I understand it to an extent obviously, but these days it's wrong to even say you don't like someone, to say someone is wrong or mistaken, etc.

I also agree. It's justifiable to judge someone based upon the content of their character or to address perceived errors in action that directly and negatively affect oneself or loved ones.
 

Gui10

Active Member
It was humans as a whole. The evil side of some humans...When the idea of democracy was first sold to the eople of Ancient Greece, it was for a ''good'' purpose but then, some men, evil men, thirty for power, saw democracy as a tool to achieve that power. The thirst for power of some men is what put the world in it's current state, whether it be through religion, politics or economy...
 

Luke Morningstar

Mourning Stalker
Was it Christianity? The governments of the world? Hollywood?

No, they were all too late.

I've noticed something admirable in the "enemies of free people", they tell it like it is. Anyone doubt that Iran hates America? No, because they have the spine to let the world know.

Is that your idea of spine? If so, I think I found your problem. And do you think Iran actually hates America? Have you been there? There are a lot of people there who have no problem America, quite a few idolize America, or at least our jeans and music. I do doubt Iran hates America.

In fact, I don't believe it's true at all. I think it's a conspiracy by Iran's government, as a part of a malicious plot to control them using religion and propaganda. Notice how we only get some politician talking? I've seen politicians. Those ************* are mean. We never get "man on the street." Maybe because they have no free speech or free press. I bet they hate that.

There's no spine in telling someone you hate them. That's fear. It's cowardice. It's saying "I don't have the guts to make peace with you, so I will try to goad you into making a mistake."

But no. It takes a courage to stand up for yourself, but it takes even more courage to those who hold power over your life. When did people start losing that power? When they started settling down and building cities. When they decided collective survival was better than wondering what your next meal was going to be. It gave us more time to imagine and invent and create. Or at least, that was the sales pitch.

So, we can go back to more egalitarian nomadic lifestyles, getting rid of the hierarchy of city social life, and also causing 6 billion and several hundred million to die of starvation and disease when we stop farming and cleaning the water in the process. We can prove how brave we are by killing warriors in seasonal, ritual combat - assuming we live.

Or we can suck it up and learn to deal with the reality before us.

Within our society I've noticed people would rather ignore you then be straight with you, dance around emotions, they like to keep this peaceful seeming stance yet really they are almost always stupid, selfish, and spineless.
People will ignore you. Not everyone will consider you an important part of their life. It just means they care about their emotions more than they care about yours.

If they look peaceful, that's usually a calming action. Diffuse emotions and avoid social conflict. They are being triggered by a source of fear, possibly someone who is holding onto rage, thinking how stupid, selfish, and spineless they are.

If you find people to be stupid, selfish, and spineless quite often, then one of two things might be true. You are a gifted genius, altrustic to a degree that you hold people to a higher standard, and not compassionate enough to notice how casually rude you act toward people, or you might be encountering people who are reflecting what they are getting.

I have also noticed people would rather have a mansion full of **** handed to them than a shelf full of things they've earned. Where does this pathetic and socially unevolved disposition arise from? It's too wide spread to be individually psychological.

Well, this socially "unevolved" evolutionary trait comes a glitch in mixing human imaginative power, and the ancient biological drive to survive. Every single person is taught to build a goal that will help society, and having stuff has almost always been a sign of success. Whether it's stuff you made or a mansion full of asterisks. We all tell ourselves stories about what is important. Some people think it's a large home, others a pile of asterisks, and others say nothing is important but what you earned. They're all different interpretations of our survival instinct. For some people, a large home means stability to survive in their world. For others, asterisks means being able to avoid words frowned upon by our lord political correctness.

Hell I don't know about you all but I make it a goal to be straight with people as well as do things to help others with no reward other than self respect.

How's that working out for other people? You seem to be really ****** off by the fact no one else seems to try or care.

Actually I don't think it's a stretch at all. The whole political correctness is simply insane. I understand it to an extent obviously, but these days it's wrong to even say you don't like someone, to say someone is wrong or mistaken, etc.

These days? I don't think it's ever been considered polite or civil to say you don't like someone, or someone is wrong or mistaken. I know people who said, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." And they said it decades before political correctness was a thing.

Based on your casual use of insane and accusations of spinelessness, I think the problem might be more in how and why you tell people you don't like them, and how and why you tell them you disagree with them. I don't think the all knowing, all powerful and "insane" institution of political correctness is quite as involved as it feels to be. I think you're more concerned about appearing like a straight shooter than the people you are shooting at.

Think more about why you do what you do, and less about why other people do what they do. It will serve you well.
 
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