Who was Baha'u'llah?

[InvestigateTruth]

Now it is time, time ask the question about Baha'u'llah.

Please choose one of the options.

 

[danieldemol]

As per usual you are splitting the "no" vote, which doesn't make this an informative poll in my view.

In my opinion.

 

[F1fan]

So are we voting for Baha'u'llah's final status? If he is voted off the island will all Baha'i reject him and his claims? So far he is a fraud by 2-1. That's a bad start to the trend.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now it is time, time ask the question about Baha'u'llah.

Please choose one of the options.

Baha'u'llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God, and truly He was the Manifestation of God.​

 

[Trailblazer]

So are we voting for Baha'u'llah's final status? If he is voted off the island will all Baha'i reject him and his claims? So far he is a fraud by 2-1. That's a bad start to the trend.

I know how much Atheists love their evidence. Got any evidence to back that vote? Otherwise it is simply a bald assertion, a logical fallacy..

What is "bald assertion?" Well the name says it all, doesn't it? It's stating something without backing it up.
Logical Fallacy Lesson 4: Bald Assertion | Rational Response Squad

 

[Windwalker]

I know how much Atheists love their evidence. Got any evidence to back that vote? Otherwise it is simply a bald assertion, a logical fallacy..

Well, the poll itself is asking what people believe about him, or what there opinions are of him. That's not a logic fallacy to state what someone believes or what their opinion is.

But full disclosure, I voted for option 3 above also. But I am not an atheist. I have reasons that support and inform my opinion on this, and I don't believe there are logic fallacies in that. I could explain why I believe this, should you be interested in hearing them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, the poll itself is asking what people believe about him, or what there opinions are of him. That's not a logic fallacy to state what someone believes or what their opinion is.

No, it is not a logical fallacy unless he is making a claim. A belief is not a claim.

@F1fan said: "So far he is a fraud by 2-1. That's a bad start to the trend."
He is sounded like a claim, which is why I said what I said.

But full disclosure, I voted for option 3 above also. But I am not an atheist. I have reasons that support and inform my opinion on this, and I don't believe there are logic fallacies in that. I could explain why I believe this, should you be interested in hearing them.

Go ahead.

 

[Truthseeker]

Well, the poll itself is asking what people believe about him, or what there opinions are of him. That's not a logic fallacy to state what someone believes or what their opinion is.

But full disclosure, I voted for option 3 above also. But I am not an atheist. I have reasons that support and inform my opinion on this, and I don't believe there are logic fallacies in that. I could explain why I believe this, should you be interested in hearing them.

Anyone who is not a Baha'i seems to gave voted for option 3. That seems logical to me because only Baha'is believe in option 1. It's 5 - 3 now in favor of Baha'u'llah being delusional. Per the original post by F1fan, he seemed to assert that a majority vote of Baha'u'llah not being who He claimed discredits Him, which we both know is not the case.

 

[Windwalker]

No, it is not a logical fallacy unless he is making a claim. A belief is not a claim.

@F1fan said: "So far he is a fraud by 2-1. That's a bad start to the trend."
He is sounded like a claim, which is why I said what I said.

I took what he meant to be it is the consensus opinion. He related it to those reality TV shows where people vote someone off the island. "He is off the island" is the result of the vote. That's all I took his meaning to be.

Obviously the reality of who someone actually is is not a matter of popular opinion. Votes like this are simply reflective of how people perceive them to be.

Go ahead.

Sure. What I find a little unsettling for me is the idea of someone going around claiming to be Light of the Age, or some other such grandiose self-claims. One of the true earmarks of greatness, or Divine Light, to me is humility. Not self-promotion.

What I hear in the direct writings that the Baha'i share incessantly and with great volume in quotations from their prophet, sound very much self-promotional. It is my view that Truth does not need advertisements. It speaks for itself. Its Light is seen by those with eyes to see, and a desire for that Truth, without the need for grandiose self-claims of being the Morning Star, and the like.

Now clearly someone can point to Jesus saying things like this about himself in the gospels, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life", and the like. No doubt. That might seem a fair comparison. But here is where I see that as being different.

Those are words attributed to Jesus, by those who wrote stories about him. Those gospels are devotional materials, stories created to capture the various teachings that were floating around in oral traditions by people sharing their imaginations of their savior. These gospels are "according to" the author's vision of their savior, or Master.

So these images of Jesus and what he said, are the faith-inspired imaginations or visions of who and what Jesus was to them - larger than life, the Son of God, the Light of the World, and the like. And that is and can be an inspiration to those with a heart of faith, as a way to connect heaven to earth, and themselves to the Divine, through that "mediator".

So, when others say that about someone in their words and their stories, they are speaking about their inspired vision of their Master. But when someone goes around saying that about themselves, that rings of delusions of grandeur. Self-promotion, "I am the Light of the World", would not need to be said at all by the person themselves, if in fact that is what they were. But that is what you have in the direct writings of Baha'u'llah, about himself.

I could far greater accept that others might say that about him, for the reasons I stated. He inspired faith in them. But when they say it about themselves, I hear ego, not humility. I hear delusional, not Illumination.

Furthermore, I don't believe in the whole idea of an externalized God and a system of prophets and Messangers. I do believe however, that God can and does shine through individuals, and some more brilliantly than others. I do believe some may be great, even divine teachers. But they are not something separate or above us. But rather something we all can, and should hope to become in ourselves.

The whole idea of this system of unattainable "Messengers" and 'stations" and whatnot, creates this untrue hierarchical structure of religion, and not authentic spiritual liberation. I believe in transcending religion and becoming One with the Divine itself, in everyone without exception.

I could go on, but those are the highlights of my thoughts and reasoning which support and inform my opinion about this.

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyone who is not a Baha'i seems to gave voted for option 3. That seems logical to me because only Baha'is believe in option 1. It's 5 - 3 now in favor of Baha'u'llah being delusional. Per the original post by F1fan, he seemed to assert that a majority vote of Baha'u'llah not being who He claimed discredits Him, which we both know is not the case.

*WINNER*

 

[F1fan]

I know how much Atheists love their evidence. Got any evidence to back that vote? Otherwise it is simply a bald assertion, a logical fallacy..

What is "bald assertion?" Well the name says it all, doesn't it? It's stating something without backing it up.
Logical Fallacy Lesson 4: Bald Assertion | Rational Response Squad

I made no assertions. I stated data from RF itself. Now its even worse at 3 to 5 that Baha’u’llah is a fraud. You like your majority belief as an argument, so there.

You tend to throw out your typical nonsense when you feel threatened.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So are we voting for Baha'u'llah's final status? If he is voted off the island will all Baha'i reject him and his claims? So far he is a fraud by 2-1. That's a bad start to the trend.

The idea of poll, or voting is not to decide if we should believe in Baha'u'llah or not.
Obviously the majority of people of the world do not believe in Baha'u'llah.
I just want to give Forum people a chance to see where they are at for themselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure. What I find a little unsettling for me is the idea of someone going around claiming to be Light of the Age, or some other such grandiose self-claims. One of the true earmarks of greatness, or Divine Light, to me is humility. Not self-promotion.

Baha'u'llah made certain claims such as to be the return of Christ and the Messenger of God for this age, but they were not grandiose self-claims or self-promotion. Baha'u'llah never promoted Himself, He only promoted God.

“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85

“Know ye that I am afraid of none except God. In none but Him have I placed My trust; to none will I cleave but Him, and wish for naught except the thing He hath wished for Me. This, indeed, is My heart’s desire, did ye but know it. I have offered up My soul and My body as a sacrifice for God, the Lord of all worlds. Whoso hath known God shall know none but Him, and he that feareth God shall be afraid of no one except Him, though the powers of the whole earth rise up and be arrayed against him. I speak naught except at His bidding, and follow not, through the power of God and His might, except His truth. He, verily, shall recompense the truthful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 126

“Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him. Say: God is My witness! I have wished nothing whatever for Myself. What I have wished is the victory of God and the triumph of His Cause. He is Himself a sufficient witness between you and Me. Were ye to cleanse your eyes, ye would readily perceive how My deeds testify to the truth of My words, how My words are a guide to My deeds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 256-257

What I hear in the direct writings that the Baha'i share incessantly and with great volume in quotations from their prophet, sound very much self-promotional. It is my view that Truth does not need advertisements. It speaks for itself. Its Light is seen by those with eyes to see, and a desire for that Truth, without the need for grandiose self-claims of being the Morning Star, and the like.

Regarding grandiose self-claims, see above.

Baha'u'llah had to make certain claims as otherwise nobody would know who He was claiming to be. He was either who he claimed to be or not.
They might sound grandiose to you but 'how it sounds' to you is highly subjective.

Now clearly someone can point to Jesus saying things like this about himself in the gospels, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life", and the like. No doubt. That might seem a fair comparison. But here is where I see that as being different.

Those are words attributed to Jesus, by those who wrote stories about him. Those gospels are devotional materials, stories created to capture the various teachings that were floating around in oral traditions by people sharing their imaginations of their savior. These gospels are "according to" the author's vision of their savior, or Master.

So these images of Jesus and what he said, are the faith-inspired imaginations or visions of who and what Jesus was to them - larger than life, the Son of God, the Light of the World, and the like. And that is and can be an inspiration to those with a heart of faith, as a way to connect heaven to earth, and themselves to the Divine, through that "mediator".

So, when others say that about someone in their words and their stories, they are speaking about their inspired vision of their Master. But when someone goes around saying that about themselves, that rings of delusions of grandeur. Self-promotion, "I am the Light of the World", would not need to be said at all by the person themselves, if in fact that is what they were. But that is what you have in the direct writings of Baha'u'llah, about himself.

I understand your comparing Baha'u'llah to Jesus and the gospels, but comparing oral tradition with direct writings is not really a fair comparison, Maybe you do not believe it but Christians believe that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and said "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." You cannot get much more grandiose than that.

Baha'u'llah never claimed "I am the Light of the World" This is all about how you interpret what He wrote.

I could far greater accept that others might say that about him, for the reasons I stated. He inspired faith in them. But when they say it about themselves, I hear ego, not humility. I hear delusional, not Illumination.

But He never said that about Himself. He only claimed to be a Manifestation and Messenger of God and the return of Christ.

Furthermore, I don't believe in the whole idea of an externalized God and a system of prophets and Messangers. I do believe however, that God can and does shine through individuals, and some more brilliantly than others. I do believe some may be great, even divine teachers. But they are not something separate or above us. But rather something we all can, and should hope to become in ourselves.

The whole idea of this system of unattainable "Messengers" and 'stations" and whatnot, creates this untrue hierarchical structure of religion, and not authentic spiritual liberation. I believe in transcending religion and becoming One with the Divine itself, in everyone without exception.

So now we are getting to the meat of it, you don't like the idea of Messengers of God and don't believe they are necessary. I could not disagree with you more. I don't believe that anyone can become One with the Divine. I don't believe that anyone can join partners with God. I believe that God is one and alone, without peer or equal, detached from all things, self-subsisting and God has no associate unto Himself.

I believe that God I believe that spiritual liberation comes with recognition of the Messenger of God for this age and adherence to His laws.

I do not want to argue with you about this since it is only my belief, my personal opinion. Your personal opinion differs, but neither one of our opinions can ever be proven as a fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now its even worse at 3 to 5 that Baha’u’llah is a fraud. You like your majority belief as an argument, so there.

No, I do not like majority belief as an argument for what is actually true since that is a fallacy.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

 

[F1fan]

The idea of poll, or voting is not to decide if we should believe in Baha'u'llah or not.
Obviously the majority of people of the world do not believe in Baha'u'llah.
I just want to give Forum people a chance to see where they are at for themselves.

It’s a self defeating act for the forum Baha’i. The only reason I can distill from theists shaming themselves is an attempt to be a sort of martyr and get sympathetic attention. It was well known who was Baha’i and how their beliefs are not shared by other religions.

No, I do not like majority belief as an argument for what is actually true since that is a fallacy.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is

You fail to grasp what fallacies are and how they are applied. Your initial response to me was completely incorrect. You debate like you’re throwing spaghetti at the wall.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your initial response to me was completely incorrect.

It was only incorrect if you were not making an assertion. Otherwise it was correct.

 

[Vinayaka]

When I first encountered the Baha'i Faith (here on this forum) I did some investigating. One side of that research was on the nature of grandiose delusion. This was also research for a couple of members of this forum, as I truly wanted to better understand where they were coming from, and just how to relate to such a person, in a kindly way. I also had family and acquaintances who occasionally suffered them as a biproduct of bipolar depression. Sadly, every mental health institution on this planet will have several patients who suffer. I chatted with a friend who is a psychiatrist at the local one. 150 years ago there were no such diagnoses available, and a few people did manage to convince others of their delusion, for varying reasons. It still happens today, but to a lesser degree. A couple of mass suicides have probably 'helped' in that sense. I don't think there was ever any lack of sincerity involved. Can't blame a person for trying.

 

[F1fan]

It was only incorrect if you were not making an assertion. Otherwise it was correct.

And I wasn’t making an assertion, just stating the poll data at the time. And i said it was a bad trend, which is true, and also which has gotten worse.

 

[Trailblazer]

And I wasn’t making an assertion, just stating the poll data at the time.

I know that now.

And i said it was a bad trend, which is true, and also which has gotten worse.

Of course the trend is bad and has gotten worse, there are only three Baha'is who have responded.
How many Baha'is are on this forum compared to all the non-Baha'is? Why would non-Baha'is believe option 1?

All those who responded:

Bahaullah claimed to be Messenger of God and He was sincere but He was delusional​

The problem with option 3 is that Baha'u'llah fit none of the diagnostic criteria for any of the different types of delusional disorder.

Types of Delusions in Delusional Disorders

• Erotomanic: The person believes someone is in love with them and might try to contact that person. ...
• Grandiose: This person has an over-inflated sense of worth, power, knowledge, or identity. ...
• Jealous: A person with this type believes their spouse or sexual partner is unfaithful.

Delusional Disorder and Types of Delusions - WebMD

Baha'u'llah did not have an over-inflated sense of worth, power, knowledge, or identity, quite the contrary.

“And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain…….

Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self within such a Court is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Of course the trend is bad and has gotten worse, there are only three Baha'is who have responded.
How many Baha'is are on this forum compared to all the non-Baha'is? Why would non-Baha'is believe option 1?

^ This. What else could we possibly expect? In my opinion, it is a terribly skewed poll.

And it's not like you or the other Bahais on this forum require this skewed poll or the opinions of others to validate your beliefs.