Who was Baha'u'llah?

[Treasure Hunter]

Fast forward though my journey into religion trying to find guidance on that path of return, then out of religion as it failed that goal for me, through many trials and errors, through many ego projects to find that Peace again, to discovering the practice of meditation. Once I started a meditation practice, that doorway was immediately opened again, and since that, through long series of removing obstacle after obstacle from within, letting go, relaxing, surrendering, and so forth, I am very much more touching into that ever Present Reality, both in the world and in myself.

The fact that initial Satori or Awakening experience had happened spontaneously, it was both a massive blessing which literally save me from a collapsing darkness, and a challenge in that I had wanted everything to instantly go back there again as it had initially. That I have now, decades later come to recognize was my ego avoiding truly coming to terms with those things that I was and have been attached to as an avoidance of full release.

So today, it is the same as before, but simply different degrees of that same Light. It progresses. Perhaps it is better understood as Kensho.

Are you aware of the parables of the hidden treasure and the pearl in Matthew 13:44-46? You found the hidden treasure or pearl of great value, but notice the way Jesus has the men respond to their discovery. He says that they went away and went back to sell everything they had. Another way I would say it is that you got a taste of the eternal spring of life, but that is all you are allowed in this part of the journey, a taste. To go back is to turn away from the light and return to that collapsing darkness which is still underneath your feet.

To return to that darkness is the same thing as re-identifying with the worldly egoic-self (ES) and re-entering the world fully. The part of you that has to let go of the light is the ES. The ES is backwards focused. It always wants to recover and restore the heaven of the past. The part of the ES that seeks to recover that feeling of fulfillment from the past is in opposition to the idea of reconnecting to the worldly ES.

This is supposed to test our faith. We are supposed to trust that we can let the experience go completely and still remember it is who we are and what belongs to us. This test of faith can only happen if we re-enter the darkness and the world fully.

It takes a strong will in order to pull this off and I can go into detail about how to access that will if you want, but I’m going to stop here not knowing if you are interested in hearing more.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe that reveals you don't know much about the Bible and that you do not know god personally.

How do we measure the sincerity of a person?

 

[Windwalker]

Are you aware of the parables of the hidden treasure and the pearl in Matthew 13:44-46? You found the hidden treasure or pearl of great value, but notice the way Jesus has the men respond to their discovery. He says that they went away and went back to sell everything they had. Another way I would say it is that you got a taste of the eternal spring of life, but that is all you are allowed in this part of the journey, a taste. To go back is to turn away from the light and return to that collapsing darkness which is still underneath your feet.

I don't quite read those parables as them turning back away from the Light. What both of those are teaching is that upon finding these great treasures, the discoverers sacrifice everything they have in order to attain these properly.

I don't see turning back away from the gift in these stories, but a singular focus on attaining them through proper means, as opposed to ill-gotten gains and stealing them off the land they do not own. "I need enough to be able to pay the price to own them". That actually is much more my own story.

But you do have a certain point about "turning back", but that would fit into different parables better, such as the parable of the Wise Builder in Mt. 7:24-27. The tendency is to want to not really pay the full price to do it right, cut corners, cheat, build upon sand instead of a proper solid foundation.

This fits more into the ego clinging to itself and its own past, not wanting to pay the ultimate price of its own relinquishing of control. This fits better with what I hear you trying to say. And that would be part of my own history as well. I want that pearl of great price, but I also fear the cost. That I think is all our stories to one degree or another.

To return to that darkness is the same thing as re-identifying with the worldly egoic-self (ES) and re-entering the world fully. The part of you that has to let go of the light is the ES. The ES is backwards focused.

Overcoming the world, or overcoming the ego as the center of gravity of our self-identity is to overcome the natural impulse of self-preservation. It is the fear of death itself that must be faced. But there are two-types of death anxieties we as humans experience. The fear of the death of our physical body, and the dissolution of our our self-identities, that "me" that defines how we see and relate to ourselves in this world.

So even if someone has had a Satori experience, that taste of the Absolute, this does not mean they are ready to integrate that Realization as the center of their self-identify, or identifying as the Self. This is a process of integration. It is typically not an instantaneous transformation.

But truly turning back in my view, would be to walk away from the pursuit of transformation, to throw in the towel, and just go back to the world of illusion. The perfect metaphor for that comes from The Matrix movie, and is taking the blue pill instead of the red pill. Taking the blue pill means settling for ordinary experience of reality seen through the egoic self, whereas the red pill means reality will be forever changed and there is no going back.

In my view, this red pill/blue pill choice is an everyday thing. Do we move forward towards the Truth, or do we settle back into the relative safety and securities of the mundane, ignorant life of the egoic self? If we take that blue pill every day, soon we are like that frog in the water having acclimated to the ways of the world, or the egoic life. If we take the red pill every day, going back becomes more and more untenable.

In my past decades since that first major dose of the red pill of Awakening, there had been blue-pill periods. But these are complex matters, and it's not simply a lack of Will or the spiritual Will. It is a constant struggle between the spiritual Will and the egoic will.

In all Truthfulness though, it's more than just that epic battle. Sometimes the ego need to be healed first, before it can be let go of. I believe that has been very much part of my own path. There is a deep truth that we must first be able to love ourselves, before we are able to love others as ourselves.

"Growing beyond the ego", is really only valid when that ego is healthy first. Otherwise it can just be a spiritual bypassing, using the Goal of Enlightenment or "heaven", as a way to avoid facing our own pain and letting that go.

It always wants to recover and restore the heaven of the past. The part of the ES that seeks to recover that feeling of fulfillment from the past is in opposition to the idea of reconnecting to the worldly ES.

There is wisdom in this. It is true in my own life, looking to restore the past, becomes a way to avoid the present. But sometimes we must go back and heal the past, rather than just push it away and ignore it. Doing that has a way of creating shadow material which will become great obstacles on our path Home. That is very much been my own experience.

Beware of spiritual bypassing.

This is supposed to test our faith. We are supposed to trust that we can let the experience go completely and still remember it is who we are and what belongs to us. This test of faith can only happen if we re-enter the darkness and the world fully.

I agree. It's as I just said. It is indeed a act of true faith and trust in order to face our own pain and shortcomings of ourselves. We fear those and create devils and demons to guard those dark places from being entered into. But we have to face the devil, so to speak, transmute its power, infuse that wounded child with Love from the Divine, heal it, and bring it forward into the Light of the Day.

Then, we can emerge into the next level of that Awakening. This describes where I am at today now. That is the major process that is happening. And what a relief that is.

It takes a strong will in order to pull this off and I can go into detail about how to access that will if you want, but I’m going to stop here not knowing if you are interested in hearing more.

Indeed yes. That is the spiritual Will that leads that way. I think the true value in my first Awakening experience decades ago now, was to awaken just that. It showed me what is possible, and the rest has been selling everything I own, everything I cling to, to buy that Pearl of Great Price.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

It showed me what is possible, and the rest has been selling everything I own, everything I cling to, to buy that Pearl of Great Price.

All of you has to sell everything including your worldly ES, which is why the spirit of truth tries to lead you back. You say decades later - it shouldn't take nearly that long.

Here is a tool that should help:

How I‘ve personally approached this is to identify and detach from all of my beliefs. Then continuously reject those beliefs when they try to re-attach themselves to me.

I associate truth with life and reality. Anything that is true will not be destroyed. Whatever didn’t last through this process, whatever did not stand the test of time, was not true.

This process requires constant introspection and self-judgment, but there is no better way to seek truth in my experience.

Godspeed.

 

[Truthseeker]

@Windwalker, I'm done with you. I am a person who at one time as a believer in science, I thought Abdu'l-Baha was saying something contrary to science concerning the evolution of man, and it bothered me. He did make such a statement as you said, but I have considered the whole picture and I don't believe He was saying that man was not connected to apes evolutionary. I am a thoughtful person, and I don't want to have a faith that misleads me, and I've always considered seriously if there are flaws there in the Baha'i Faith. I could argue endlessly about this but i don't want to. In talking about this and other thins you perceive as flaws, you seem to be on a missionary to "save' me from myself, and it's gotten to the point where it is engendering somewhat hostile debate on your part in an effort to save me from myself. I assure you, I'm fine, I don't need you to save me from myself. I don't wish to try to "save" you. If you are having experiences where you are close to God, the well and good.

You also, in my opinion, in an effort to save me, took literally Abdu'l-Baha when He said that if you took the four criterion together, you would be "perfectly correct". I agree that that we can only for ourselves come up with our own approximation of what the truth is.

I didn't really read through the rest of the two posts you made to me, and carefully consider what you said, because I don't want to be exposed to such a missionary effort that engenders a feeling of hostility in myself. The feeling of hostility on my part is not healthy spiritually. I don't like debating for that reason, too often it ends of with me feeling my beliefs are being attacked, and I admit that I should have enough detachment from my beliefs that I don't feel personally attacked with my beliefs being attacked or challenged.

Up to now, I hadn't felt attacked like this by you. I don't like you at all right now, and that goes squarely against the Baha'i principle of friendship with people of whatever belief.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

But there are two-types of death anxieties we as humans experience. The fear of the death of our physical body, and the dissolution of our our self-identities, that "me" that defines how we see and relate to ourselves in this world.

Yeah, for the soul (or ES), the fear of identity crisis is ever present.

Taking the blue pill means settling for ordinary experience of reality seen through the egoic self, whereas the red pill means reality will be forever changed and there is no going back.

If you’ve taken the red pill and your reality / truth is forever changed, then when you go back into the world, part of you will still be red pilled. This is part of the test of faith, to see if you’ve indeed committed to the red pill.

Do we move forward towards the Truth, or do we settle back into the relative safety and securities of the mundane, ignorant life of the egoic self?

In the story of the Kingdom, we sometimes have to go back in order to move forward, to face the darkness to get to the light, to descend in order to ascend, etc. In this same theme, we are to go back into the world in order to access the Kingdom that is not of the world.

Sometimes the ego need to be healed first, before it can be let go of. I believe that has been very much part of my own path. There is a deep truth that we must first be able to love ourselves, before we are able to love others as ourselves.

There is no higher form of love then to get your soul into the Kingdom ASAP.

But we have to face the devil, so to speak, transmute its power, infuse that wounded child with Love from the Divine, heal it, and bring it forward into the Light of the Day.

The wounded child wants cosmic justice. The devil is waiting for you back in its domain in the world. It is the dragon guarding the treasure / bride you desire.

 

[Truthseeker]

@Kelly of the Phoenix, I may be wrong, but I sense a mean spiritedness about you, that goes beyond whatever @Windwalker has said. What's going on with you? I sense no thoughtful consideration of what I have said, but just short remarks that belittle whatever I have said. I don't want to address what you have said, not because I can't defend myself, but I want to be exposed to your comments that tear down as little as possible. Do you have a need to tear down the Baha'is or the Baha'i Faith? Do you have a hostility towards religious faith in general and want to tear it down? Do you like to tear other people's point of view in general? I'm not a mind reader so I don't know. Your attitude is not healthy for yourself, I would suggest. I believe we should accept other people's beliefs, and try to be friends. I'm sorry if sometimes I'm imperfect that way myself. In general, what I have been doing is defending what I believe. If I've offended people in justifying my own beliefs, I have ben wrong. I have an ego too, that wants to be seen as correct.

 

[Windwalker]

If you’ve taken the red pill and your reality / truth is forever changed, then when you go back into the world, part of you will still be red pilled. This is part of the test of faith, to see if you’ve indeed committed to the red pill.

Agreed.

In the story of the Kingdom, we sometimes have to go back in order to move forward, to face the darkness to get to the light, to descend in order to ascend, etc. In this same theme, we are to go back into the world in order to access the Kingdom that is not of the world.

Agreed.

There is no higher form of love then to get your soul into the Kingdom ASAP.

As soon as possible, may be 40 years. Or, perhaps several lifetimes. "In the fulness of time", means when the conditions are all ready. Sometimes wanting it to happen sooner, is what delays it. After all, that seeking can be the ego desiring to escape facing itself first.

The wounded child wants cosmic justice. The devil is waiting for you back in its domain in the world. It is the dragon guarding the treasure / bride you desire.

That depends on what you mean by justice. There is a distributive justice, where goodness and plenty is avalible to all without respect of positions. And there is retribitbutive justice which is an attitude of paying back wrongs with violence. That is the nature of vengence under the name of justice. I do not see the wounded child as wanting the latter, because wanting the latter is the result of feeling wounded. If they are healed, then there is forgiveness.

What I see the wounded child as really wanting is more simple that these. It just wants to be loved. That's all.

 

[Windwalker]

@Windwalker, I'm done with you.

I'm sorry you feel this way. This is very passive agressive, and I don't accept anything that you are accusing me of, as before where you projected your frustion on me as if it were mine. Since you claim I am trying to save you, I must conclude likewise this is your projection of what you have been trying to do with me, but not wishing to acknowledge.

I've never felt any need to convert you to my views, other than to try to dissuade you from invalidating my own experiences. That is a great error on your part, and downright offensive. Yet, I didn't shout "I'm done with you!", as you just have. Apparently you really weren't interested in a disucssion, but only trying to be right or "save me", which is your own admission in your projection here.

I hope whatever truth I have patiently shared with you may have softened your views a little to include others who think, believe, and experience God differently than you do. That is what the Baha'i faith claims it's all about, isn't it?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

That depends on what you mean by justice. There is a distributive justice, where goodness and plenty is avalible to all without respect of positions. And there is retribitbutive justice which is an attitude of paying back wrongs with violence. That is the nature of vengence under the name of justice. I do not see the wounded child as wanting the latter, because wanting the latter is the result of feeling wounded. If they are healed, then there is forgiveness.

I mean the latter. The idea is that ripping the kingdom of heaven away from the child with a fragile faith — flooding them with despair to the point of trauma — is an unforgivable, irredeemable action. This is how the story goes. I’m saying this matter-of-factly.

The story gets harder as we progress (“To whom much is given, much will be required”). The willpower that you need to move forward can only be accessed through the desire for cosmic justice.

What I see the wounded child as really wanting is more simple that these. It just wants to be loved. That's all.

You’ll notice I keep saying this but the wounded child is split. The one that wants to be loved is the one that has primary access to the light of consciousness but is never fulfilled. This version keeps the other version as an outcast in the darkness. Fulfillment is found in service to the outcasted child that desires justice.

 

[CG Didymus]

I hope whatever truth I have patiently shared with you may have softened your views a little to include others who think, believe, and experience God differently than you do. That is what the Baha'i faith claims it's all about, isn't it?

If the Baha'is believe their prophet has given them the truth about God for today, then "no", I don't think Baha'is can truly accept people that have different religious views. Ultimately, they would want to guide and show people this new truth and to get them to understand and accept that their prophet is the truth and fulfillment of their religion.

 

[Windwalker]

If the Baha'is believe their prophet has given them the truth about God for today, then "no", I don't think Baha'is can truly accept people that have different religious views. Ultimately, they would want to guide and show people this new truth and to get them to understand and accept that their prophet is the truth and fulfillment of their religion.

The One Ring to rule them all?

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm sorry you feel this way. This is very passive agressive, and I don't accept anything that you are accusing me of, as before where you projected your frustion on me as if it were mine. Since you claim I am trying to save you, I must conclude likewise this is your projection of what you have been trying to do with me, but not wishing to acknowledge.

I've never felt any need to convert you to my views, other than to try to dissuade you from invalidating my own experiences. That is a great error on your part, and downright offensive. Yet, I didn't shout "I'm done with you!", as you just have. Apparently you really weren't interested in a disucssion, but only trying to be right or "save me", which is your own admission in your projection here.

I hope whatever truth I have patiently shared with you may have softened your views a little to include others who think, believe, and experience God differently than you do. That is what the Baha'i faith claims it's all about, isn't it?

You are promoted to a person who has an anti-Bahai agenda. Welcome to the club.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the Baha'is believe their prophet has given them the truth about God for today, then "no", I don't think Baha'is can truly accept people that have different religious views.

but we do accept them and have no need to convert them.

 

[Twilight Hue]

He was sincere but He was delusional.

IMO he (as all messiah claimants) didn't fulfill the requirements.

Delusions of grandeur does seem to be a common denominator with these types of people.

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's an interesting article I found... Guidelines for Teaching by Bahá'u'lláh, Abdu'l-Bahá, and Shoghi Effendi
It seems very obvious that teaching the Faith is to be done by all Baha'is and that the purpose is to make converts to the "Cause".

Here's some quotes...

1946. ...the upper classes ... need the right type of people to approach them, and a method that can suit their mentality. Our teaching methods should allow a certain degree of elasticity in establishing contacts with various types of individual seekers. Every inquirer has to be approached from his own angle. Those who are essentially of the mystic type should first be given those teachings of the Cause which emphasize the nature and value of spiritual realities; while those who are practically minded and of a positive type are naturally more ready and inclined to accept the social aspect of the Teachings. But of course, gradually the entire Message, in all its aspects and with the full implications it entails, should be explained to the newcomer. For to be a believer means to accept the Cause in its wholeness, and not to adhere to some of its teachings. However, as already stated, this ought to be done gradually and tactfully. For conversion is after all a slow process. (From a letter dated 28 December 1936 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer) 1949. ...refrain, under any circumstances, from involving yourselves, much less the Cause, in lengthy discussions of a controversial character, as these besides being fruitless actually cause incalculable harm to the Faith. Bahá'u'lláh has repeatedly urged us not to engage in religious controversies, as the adepts of former religions have done. The Bahá'í teacher should be concerned above all in presenting the Message, in explaining and clarifying all its aspects, rather than in attacking other religions. He should avoid all situations that, he feels, would lead to strife, to hair-splitting and interminable discussions. (From a letter dated 29 November 1937 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer) 1984. What is needed to achieve success in the teaching field is a complete dedication on the part of the individual, consecration to the glorious task of spreading the Faith, and the living of the Bahá'í life, because that creates the magnet for the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit which quickens the new soul. Thus the individual should be as a reed, through which the Holy Spirit may flow, to give new life to the seeking soul. One should search out those who are receptive to the Faith, and then concentrate on these persons in their teaching. (From a letter dated 18 December 1953 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer) 1987. The Guardian feels that the most effective way for the Bahá'ís to teach the Faith is to make strong friends with their neighbours and associates. When the friends have confidence in the Bahá'ís and the Bahá'ís in their friends, they should give the Message and teach the Cause. Individual teaching of this type is more effective than any other type.

 

[Trailblazer]

He was sincere but He was delusional.

One could say that same thing about Jesus, considering all of His claims regarding His relationship with God.
What more evidence is there that Jesus was who He claimed to be than there is to support Baha'u'llah's claims?

Actually, there is a lot more evidence to support Baha'u'llah's claims since we know exactly what He accomplished on His mission and we have His original Writings penned in His own hand, so we know His teachings and Laws came from Him.

All we have from Jesus is the New Testament, which was written decades after Jesus lived by men who never even knew Jesus.

THE REJECTED SAYINGS

The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”

John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Mark 13:25, 30: (A series of apocalyptic sayings) “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory. . . . Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”

Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”

Mark 10:32-34: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”

Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.

The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.

www.latimes.com

 

[Trailblazer]

But of course, gradually the entire Message, in all its aspects and with the full implications it entails, should be explained to the newcomer. For to be a believer means to accept the Cause in its wholeness, and not to adhere to some of its teachings.

However, as already stated, this ought to be done gradually and tactfully. For conversion is after all a slow process.

(From a letter dated 28 December 1936 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

The Guardian did not say that Baha'is should try to convert anyone to the Baha'i Faith.
"For conversion is after all a slow process" means a person's 'free will choice' to convert is a process that takes a long time.

That is probably true since most people are members of another religion such as Christianity, but it was not a long process for me since I had no religion before I became a Baha'i thus I had no baggage to unload. I thank God for that every day.

 

[Windwalker]

For to be a believer means to accept the Cause in its wholeness, and not to adhere to some of its teachings.

Wow. Translation. A true believer does not question the faith. One must follow the infallible authority of the leadership.

However, as already stated, this ought to be done gradually and tactfully. For conversion is after all a slow process.

Translation: Do scare them off. They need to be assimilated gradually until they adhere to all the teachings.

One should search out those who are receptive to the Faith, and then concentrate on these persons in their teaching.

Translation: Look for those whom you can target for conversion. Just tell those who don't buy what you are selling, "I'm done with you", once you've tried your best pitches and nothing worked as hoped for.

This is seriously the same stuff that we did in that fundamentalist cult I used to be a part of. Everything had ulterior motives. Nothing was out of genuine action. There was always a sales pitch attached. It was all about marketing and selling religion.

The Guardian feels that the most effective way for the Bahá'ís to teach the Faith is to make strong friends with their neighbours and associates.

Translation: Be a good neighbor in order to sell your religion. Not because you're really a good person and genuinely care. But you should act like you care, so they becoming interested in your religion. Again, same stuff.

When the friends have confidence in the Bahá'ís and the Bahá'ís in their friends, they should give the Message and teach the Cause. Individual teaching of this type is more effective than any other type.

Yes, this is all right out of the cult handbook that the religion I was in did. Be friendly, smile, show you care, then tell them about your religion. Make them want to join by being nice to them. It's your duty as a believer to spread the word. That's what makes you a true believer.

This has absolutely zero appeal to me, because it is not genuine love. How about this, show love without any expectation of anything in return! What a novel idea. That's what love does.

 

[Windwalker]

One could say that same thing about Jesus, considering all of His claims regarding His relationship with God.

All we have from Jesus is the New Testament, which was written decades after Jesus lived by men who never even knew Jesus.

THE REJECTED SAYINGS

The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”

John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Mark 13:25, 30: (A series of apocalyptic sayings) “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory. . . . Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”

Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”

Mark 10:32-34: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”

Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.

The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.

www.latimes.com

This is ironic. You just said Jesus made all these claims about himself, and then you showed scholarship that claims he didn't say those things about himself! Which is it?

BTW, I concur. He very likely didn't say those things about himself. If he had, that might seem rather delusional, wouldn't it? I think I made this point before....