Who was Baha'u'llah?

[Starlight]

Baha'u'llah was a holy soul from God

 

[Trailblazer]

We don't know if this is an interpretation of what Baha'u'llah said.

That's a good point. Of all of the writings of Abdu'l-Baha, how do we know what is or isn't an interpretation of what Baha'u'llah said?
If it isn't an interpretation of what Baha'u'llah said I see no reason to consider it infallible.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Yeah, I don't read the Jesus of the gospels as a villain. You'd have to read the Buddha as a jerk and a villain too, considering his teachings paralleled Jesus' in some remarkably similar ways. That's just a bit too cynical for my rational mind to get behind.

Buddha’s wife and kids he abandoned surely would.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah was a holy soul from God

Then he is the promised One of all religions? His teaching can and will bring peace and unity to the world?

 

[CG Didymus]

What else could we possibly expect? In my opinion, it is a terribly skewed poll.

And it's not like you or the other Bahais on this forum require this skewed poll or the opinions of others to validate your beliefs.

Right, but it gives a clear opinion of others on Baha'u'llah and opens up farther discussions to clear it out.

So, what happened? Isn't it time to open this up to further discussion? Lots of us here on the forum have heard and responded to the claims of Baha'u'llah. What further discussion can Baha'is offer?

Baha'is have said that God is real, that Baha'u'llah is his latest messenger/manifestation, and that he has brought laws and teachings that will one day bring peace and unity to the world. Baha'is have talked about the peace plan and the Baha'i interpretations of some of the beliefs held by some of the other religions. Saying, basically, how Baha'is believe that those other religions have misinterpreted their own Scriptures. What else you got?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Then he is the promised One of all religions? His teaching can and will bring peace and unity to the world?

Do you remember what Baha'u'llah wrote in the first page of Iqan, about Noah?
Why do you think Baha'u'llah wrote about Noah's story in the Iqan? What was His purpose? What message He meant to convey by narrating that story?

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you remember what Baha'u'llah wrote in the first page of Iqan, about Noah?
Why do you think Baha'u'llah wrote about Noah's story in the Iqan? What was His purpose? What message He meant to convey by narrating that story?

That's not a good example for me. But I'm glad you responded back. Baha'u'llah is either for real, or the biggest fraud in the world. It deserves a thorough examination.

The problem is that once he implies that Noah lived over 900 years, I lost confidence in what he was saying. Then he never mentioned the ark or the flood? That was the main part of the story.

Similar to that is when he says that it was Ishmael taken by Abraham to be sacrificed. To me, these are myths and legends. I don't believe them to be true, historical stories. So why change a mythical story and say that the Bible writers got the stories wrong. It was their myth. They can make it up anyway they want. But then to say that the Jews misinterpreted their own mythical stories wrong?

So, the first thing. Do Baha'is believe these stories were accurate and tell of actual, historical events and people? Or that they were completely fictional? Or a little of both? Because one problem is that Baha'is seem to use some things as true and accurate while other things as symbolic and fictional. And it's Baha'is that decide which one it is.

Is the Bible a "sure" guide? Or is it not "wholly" authentic? Again, I'm perfectly fine believing it was just a bunch of made-up stories about a people and their God. And that some of the people, like Adam, Noah and others don't necessarily have to be real. Yet, like with Adam, Baha'is make him a manifestation? It seems too much like Baha'is are taking pieces of the Bible stories and making them into a new story that fits into their beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, the first thing. Do Baha'is believe these stories were accurate and tell of actual, historical events and people? Or that they were completely fictional? Or a little of both? Because one problem is that Baha'is seem to use some things as true and accurate while other things as symbolic and fictional. And it's Baha'is that decide which one it is.

Everyone who reads the Bible believes that some things are true and accurate while other things as symbolic and fictional. This is not a Baha'i thing.

Is the Bible a "sure" guide? Or is it not "wholly" authentic?

Baha'is believe that the Bible is a sure guide to spiritual truth but it is not wholly authentic.

Again, I'm perfectly fine believing it was just a bunch of made-up stories about a people and their God. And that some of the people, like Adam, Noah and others don't necessarily have to be real. Yet, like with Adam, Baha'is make him a manifestation? It seems too much like Baha'is are taking pieces of the Bible stories and making them into a new story that fits into their beliefs.

Baha'is do not 'make' anyone a manifestation. We believe what Baha'u'llah wrote regarding who is a manifestation.

Baha'is do not take pieces of the Bible stories and make them into a new story that fits into our beliefs. We believe what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote regarding the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah is either for real, or the biggest fraud in the world.

That's true. There is no middle ground.

It deserves a thorough examination.

It does, but it makes no sense to keep examining the same things over and over again expecting to find something different.

The problem is that once he implies that Noah lived over 900 years, I lost confidence in what he was saying. Then he never mentioned the ark or the flood? That was the main part of the story.

Baha'u'llah did not say that Noah lived over 900 years.
The ark and the flood is just a fictional story so there was no need for Him to mention it.
It is a well-known scientific fact that there was never a worldwide flood.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's not a good example for me. But I'm glad you responded back. Baha'u'llah is either for real, or the biggest fraud in the world. It deserves a thorough examination.

The problem is that once he implies that Noah lived over 900 years, I lost confidence in what he was saying. Then he never mentioned the ark or the flood? That was the main part of the story.

Similar to that is when he says that it was Ishmael taken by Abraham to be sacrificed. To me, these are myths and legends. I don't believe them to be true, historical stories. So why change a mythical story and say that the Bible writers got the stories wrong. It was their myth. They can make it up anyway they want. But then to say that the Jews misinterpreted their own mythical stories wrong?

So, the first thing. Do Baha'is believe these stories were accurate and tell of actual, historical events and people? Or that they were completely fictional? Or a little of both? Because one problem is that Baha'is seem to use some things as true and accurate while other things as symbolic and fictional. And it's Baha'is that decide which one it is.

Is the Bible a "sure" guide? Or is it not "wholly" authentic? Again, I'm perfectly fine believing it was just a bunch of made-up stories about a people and their God. And that some of the people, like Adam, Noah and others don't necessarily have to be real. Yet, like with Adam, Baha'is make him a manifestation? It seems too much like Baha'is are taking pieces of the Bible stories and making them into a new story that fits into their beliefs.

For me, that Paragraph from Iqan about Noah, answered the question you asked if Baha'u'llahs teaching will bring peace and unite people.

 

[Pete in Panama]

That's true. There is no middle ground.

It does, but it makes no sense to keep examining the same things over and over again expecting to find something different.

Baha'u'llah did not say that Noah lived over 900 years.
The ark and the flood is just a fictional story so there was no need for Him to mention it.
It is a well-known scientific fact that there was never a worldwide flood.

Maybe maybe not.

The Bible had a different understanding of what "all over the world" meant. A quick search of the Bible for the word "world" (link here) shows up that their mode of thinking is not how we think. Back when Alexander the great was dying he said that there were still many "worlds" he had yet to conquer.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe maybe not.

The Bible had a different understanding of what "all over the world" meant. A quick search of the Bible for the word "world" (link here) shows up that their mode of thinking is not how we think. Back when Alexander the great was dying he said that there were still many "worlds" he had yet to conquer.

I'm still fine with it all being fictional myth. No need to figure out what the word meant. But, since the story has the water covering the mountains and killing everybody that was not on the ark, then, as far as the myth goes, it was probably covering the whole world. Literal believing Christians have their "proof" that it was a world-wide flood. But does that matter to everybody else besides those Christians? But, once we start disbelieving the Bible stories, when and where do we stop?

Oh, and part of the post of TB's that you responded to says that Baha'u'llah didn't say that Noah lived over 900 years, but I think his statement implies that Noah did.

"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace."​

 

[CG Didymus]

For me, that Paragraph from Iqan about Noah, answered the question you asked if Baha'u'llahs teaching will bring peace and unite people.

It did?

 

[CG Didymus]

It seems too much like Baha'is are taking pieces of the Bible stories and making them into a new story that fits into their beliefs.

What do Baha'is take from the Bible about Adam and Eve story? About the Noah story? And the Abraham story? Not much. The Bible has Adam disobeying God, yet in the Baha'i Faith, he is a manifestation? As if he was a real, historical person? Then with Noah, Baha'is disregard the ark and the flood. And with Abraham, Baha'is have him taking Ishmael to be sacrificed? Those, to me, are examples of the Baha'is taking parts of Bible stories and changing them to fit their beliefs. If the stories are fictional, why rewrite them? They weren't real to begin with.

Or are the Baha'is saying that their version of those stories are true and really happened, but that the Bible stories are wrong?

 

[Pete in Panama]

I'm still fine with it all being fictional myth. No need to figure out what the word meant. But, since the story has the water covering the mountains and killing everybody that was not on the ark, then, as far as the myth goes, it was probably covering the whole world. Literal believing Christians have their "proof" that it was a world-wide flood. But does that matter to everybody else besides those Christians? But, once we start disbelieving the Bible stories, when and where do we stop?

fwiw, Azimov (no theist he) provided ample evidence of an historical flood where everyone died who was killed by the flood.

Oh, and part of the post of TB's that you responded to says that Baha'u'llah didn't say that Noah lived over 900 years, but I think his statement implies that Noah did.

"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace."​

What you quoted never mentioned how long Noah lived. That quote describes prayerful exhortations that lasted 950 years, w/o saying if Noah lived longer than the exhortations or were the exhortations were for a dispensation or what. Then again, if we're talking chronology we'd also want to get into which calendar, which clock, etc.

This word banter is beginning to get tedious, where are we going here, if you want to conclude that Baha'u'llah was a moron then no one here can stop you. If you're trying to convince us of the idea I'd recommend giving it a rest.

 

[Truthseeker]

What you quoted never mentioned how long Noah lived. That quote describes prayerful exhortations that lasted 950 years, w/o saying if Noah lived longer than the exhortations or were the exhortations were for a dispensation or what. Then again, if we're talking chronology we'd also want to get into which calendar, which clock, etc.

This word banter is beginning to get tedious, where are we going here, if you want to conclude that Baha'u'llah was a moron then no one here can stop you. If you're trying to convince us of the idea I'd recommend giving it a rest.

That's one way to look at it. I find illumination from this passage from the Universal House of Justice quoting Shoghi Effendi:

We must not take this statement too literally; “contemporary” may have been meant in Persian as something far more elastic than the English word. (15 February 1947) It is noteworthy that at both the beginning and end of this section of the Tablet, Bahá’u’lláh indicates that He is quoting “some accounts of the sages.” These would have been the historical accounts familiar to the person whom He is addressing in the Tablet. The fact that Bahá’u’lláh makes such statements for the sake of illustrating the spiritual principles that He wishes to convey, does not necessarily mean that He is endorsing their historical accuracy. In this connection it is interesting to note the answer given by the beloved Guardian’s secretary on his behalf to a question about the “fourth heaven” mentioned in the Kitáb-i-ˆqán.The translation of the passage is as follows:

As to the ascent of Christ to the “fourth heaven” as revealed in the glorious Book of ˆqán, he [the Guardian] stated that the “fourth heaven” is a term used and a belief held by the early astronomers. The followers of the Shí’ah sect likewise held this belief. As the Kitáb-i- ˆqán was revealed for the guidance of that sect, this term was used in conformity with the concepts of its followers.
Universal House of Justice, "Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian".

The reference to 950 years in connection with Noah could be taken the same way. In the Bible Noah is listed as having lived 950 years, and Baha'u'llah was expounding on Noah using the understanding of the people of that time. Baha'u'llah also said this in the Hidden Words:

67. O SON OF BEAUTY!
By My spirit and by My favor! By My mercy and by My beauty! All that I have revealed unto thee with the tongue of power, and have written for thee with the pen of might, hath been in accordance with thy capacity and understanding, not with My state and the melody of My voice.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

@CG Didymus, also take note.

 

[Pete in Panama]

That's one way to look at it. I find illumination from this passage from the Universal House of Justice quoting Shoghi Effendi:

We must not take this statement too literally; “contemporary” may have been meant in Persian as something far more elastic than the English word. (15 February 1947) It is noteworthy that at both the beginning and end of this section of the Tablet, Bahá’u’lláh indicates that He is quoting “some accounts of the sages.” These would have been the historical accounts familiar to the person whom He is addressing in the Tablet. The fact that Bahá’u’lláh makes such statements for the sake of illustrating the spiritual principles that He wishes to convey, does not necessarily mean that He is endorsing their historical accuracy. In this connection it is interesting to note the answer given by the beloved Guardian’s secretary on his behalf to a question about the “fourth heaven” mentioned in the Kitáb-i-ˆqán.The translation of the passage is as follows:

As to the ascent of Christ to the “fourth heaven” as revealed in the glorious Book of ˆqán, he [the Guardian] stated that the “fourth heaven” is a term used and a belief held by the early astronomers. The followers of the Shí’ah sect likewise held this belief. As the Kitáb-i- ˆqán was revealed for the guidance of that sect, this term was used in conformity with the concepts of its followers.
Universal House of Justice, "Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian".

The reference to 950 years in connection with Noah could be taken the same way. In the Bible Noah is listed as having lived 950 years, and Baha'u'llah was expounding on Noah using the understanding of the people of that time. Baha'u'llah also said this in the Hidden Words:

67. O SON OF BEAUTY!
By My spirit and by My favor! By My mercy and by My beauty! All that I have revealed unto thee with the tongue of power, and have written for thee with the pen of might, hath been in accordance with thy capacity and understanding, not with My state and the melody of My voice.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

@CG Didymus, also take note.

Thank you, that was informative, elegant, and beautiful.

 

[CG Didymus]

The reference to 950 years in connection with Noah could be taken the same way. In the Bible Noah is listed as having lived 950 years, and Baha'u'llah was expounding on Noah using the understanding of the people of that time. Baha'u'llah also said this in the Hidden Words:

And that he built the ark and the animals, and his family got on it and the world was flooded and everybody else died. If that's not what happened. If Noah was not 950 years old when he died, then why not say so? Baha'is have no problem telling Christians that Jesus didn't physically resurrect and that Satan isn't real. But when Baha'u'llah says that Noah did something, that is "prayerfully exhort" his people for 950 years, that sure sounds like he's saying that Noah was at least 950 years old. Otherwise, how could he be doing something for 950 years?

That statement seems to have needed some clarification even for some Baha'is. But thanks for a much better response than this...

This word banter is beginning to get tedious, where are we going here, if you want to conclude that Baha'u'llah was a moron then no one here can stop you. If you're trying to convince us of the idea I'd recommend giving it a rest.

 

[Muffled]

Who was there in the garden with Jesus when he prayed alone? Yet we somehow have knowledge of what was said and what happened when he was alone? Same with being in the desert for 40 days alone. Same for the trial of Jesus, or Jesus before pilate, or Herod. There were no disciples there either. Yet we have a lot of details in the stories.

My point is it's not likely what was written about these things came from those who were there. What then can we say about the nature of these stories? Are they intended to be understood as recorded history, or as something else? How should we be reading them? As dispassionate news reports?

I believe the source would be the Paraclete whose job it is to inform the writers. Since Jesus is one with the Paraclete it is Jesus testifying of what was said when He was by Himself.

 

[Muffled]

Nobody knows God personally because God is unknowable personally.
God can only be known through His Manifestations such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

I believe you are mistaken. I know God personally through the Paraclete.