Who was Moses?

[Riaan]

It seems like no two scholars agree on whether Moses actually existed and whether the Exodus ever took place. However, there is one possibility I certainly think is worth investigating. Only one ancient historian mentions the pharaoh of the Exodus, namely Manetho as quoted by Josephus, and the pharaoh being Amenhotep III. That would make Moses and Crown Prince Tuthmosis the same person, as seemingly confirmed by the following facts:

1. Artapanus claims Moses was involved in the first burial ceremony of the Apis bull in the same manner as CP Tuthmosis was.
2. Moses led a rebellion against the king, which is repeated in the EL Arish Shrine Text and specifically The Story of Joseph and Asenath, in which the king's firstborn son wants to kill his father.

This leaves no doubt in my mind about who Moses really was. How is it possible that academics and scholars completely missed this?

 

[Brickjectivity]

This leaves no doubt in my mind about who Moses really was. How is it possible that academics and scholars completely missed this?

They seem to stop short of claiming with certainty anything about Moses. I just went about using a search engine and found out the Josephus does not trust Manetho's accounts; and Manetho lives in 3rd century BC during Egypts Ptolemaic dynasties at least 1000 years after Moses time. Josephus apparently considers Manetho to be sensationalist.

Its not clear if Moses appears in Egyptian History, but there are Pharoahs and relatives of them named 'Moses'. Some think there could be a relation to Amenhotep who was sort-of like a monotheist in that he treated himself like the only god, but he never left Egypt.

During one time period Egypt would raid the surrounding countries and Israel was one of them. It was called one of the Nine Bows, which were the nine groups Egypt kept suppressed. Moses laws and culture are clearly anti-Egyptian and reject Egyptian concepts of oppression. It is not hard to imagine Moses as a counter-culture Egyptian prince.

 

[Valjean]

So according to Josephus, one Manetho said something about a Pharaoh who might have been Amenhotep III?
And if there was no biblical exodus, how can any pharaoh be 'the pharaoh of the exodus?
I'm seeing more hearsay than clear evidence here.

Can you clarify this evidence a little?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

For once, I think that the Wikipedia article is fairly reliable. There is no reason to believe that the story of Moses was anything but a myth intended to define Israelite identity. It mentions that the only Egyptologist to believe in Moses was Kitchen, but doesn't mention that he was an evangelical pastor as well as an Egyptologist.

 

[Jumi]

Manetho as quoted by Josephus, and the pharaoh being Amenhotep III. That would make Moses and Crown Prince Tuthmosis the same person, as seemingly confirmed by the following facts:

1. Artapanus claims Moses was involved in the first burial ceremony of the Apis bull in the same manner as CP Tuthmosis was.
2. Moses led a rebellion against the king, which is repeated in the EL Arish Shrine Text and specifically The Story of Joseph and Asenath, in which the king's firstborn son wants to kill his father.

In history many will be disappointed if they believe one source and happen to find older sources that contradict what they believe... then it will be hard to believe another thing. Manetho made some claims I'm sure most of us wouldn't accept regardless of our beliefs. For one, he claimed that the gods ruled the world in the flesh for 13,900 years...

So it's not a matter of missing something, more about not giving undue credence.

 

[Riaan]

In history many will be disappointed if they believe one source and happen to find older sources that contradict what they believe... then it will be hard to believe another thing. Manetho made some claims I'm sure most of us wouldn't accept regardless of our beliefs. For one, he claimed that the gods ruled the world in the flesh for 13,900 years...

So it's not a matter of missing something, more about not giving undue credence.

To me it's all about probability (I'm an engineer, so I have some background on it!). We have three totally independent accounts (from different sources and different perspectives) rendering the exact same story - how would that be possible if they are not all based on an actual event? It would be infinitely more difficult to prove that all three accounts were dreamed up in different parts of the ancient Near East, yet were correlated somehow.

Manetho was an Egyptian priest and sure, Josephus attacked him about his version of the Hebrew people during the reign of A3 (Manetho's 'fictitious' king called Amenophis who just happened to be a very real one), and was specifically very hostile towards him because Manetho dared to imply that the Hebrews were also leprous and polluted, like the Egyptians were. Everyone in Egypt was affected by the plague. About the gods having ruled the world in flesh and blood may very well be true. The human race is certainly much older than that, and if some of the ancient mega-structures around the world had been constructed by these people, they may very well have been regarded as 'gods'. If I recall correctly, there is a Sumerian king list that also dates back to around 11 000 years.

 

[Jumi]

To me it's all about probability (I'm an engineer, so I have some background on it!).

It has very little to do with probability as used in engineering. Assume that someone makes the first car and someone sees the blueprint and proceeds to make another car. What's the possibility that the two bear a resemblance? As far as shared stories with different takes goes, those are quite common.

We have three totally independent accounts (from different sources and different perspectives) rendering the exact same story - how would that be possible if they are not all based on an actual event? It would be infinitely more difficult to prove that all three accounts were dreamed up in different parts of the ancient Near East, yet were correlated somehow.

Different parts? About as different as New York and Ohio, still parts of the same cultural sphere, shared books and scholars moved around.

Manetho was an Egyptian priest and sure, Josephus attacked him about his version of the Hebrew people during the reign of A3 (Manetho's 'fictitious' king called Amenophis who just happened to be a very real one), and was specifically very hostile towards him because Manetho dared to imply that the Hebrews were also leprous and polluted, like the Egyptians were. Everyone in Egypt was affected by the plague. About the gods having ruled the world in flesh and blood may very well be true.

Well things may be true, but we have no proof of gods ruling anywhere.

The human race is certainly much older than that, and if some of the ancient mega-structures around the world had been constructed by these people, they may very well have been regarded as 'gods'. If I recall correctly, there is a Sumerian king list that also dates back to around 11 000 years.

Yes they date to quite mythical times of which no written material has survived to us.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It seems like no two scholars agree on whether Moses actually existed and whether the Exodus ever took place. However, there is one possibility I certainly think is worth investigating. Only one ancient historian mentions the pharaoh of the Exodus, namely Manetho as quoted by Josephus, and the pharaoh being Amenhotep III. That would make Moses and Crown Prince Tuthmosis the same person, as seemingly confirmed by the following facts:

1. Artapanus claims Moses was involved in the first burial ceremony of the Apis bull in the same manner as CP Tuthmosis was.
2. Moses led a rebellion against the king, which is repeated in the EL Arish Shrine Text and specifically The Story of Joseph and Asenath, in which the king's firstborn son wants to kill his father.

This leaves no doubt in my mind about who Moses really was. How is it possible that academics and scholars completely missed this?

Do the historians know, approximately how long ago, people actually started believing in Moses, and becomming followers of His Religious teachings and laws?

 

[Valjean]

To me it's all about probability (I'm an engineer, so I have some background on it!). We have three totally independent accounts (from different sources and different perspectives) rendering the exact same story - how would that be possible if they are not all based on an actual event? It would be infinitely more difficult to prove that all three accounts were dreamed up in different parts of the ancient Near East, yet were correlated somehow.

Manetho was an Egyptian priest and sure, Josephus attacked him about his version of the Hebrew people during the reign of A3 (Manetho's 'fictitious' king called Amenophis who just happened to be a very real one), and was specifically very hostile towards him because Manetho dared to imply that the Hebrews were also leprous and polluted, like the Egyptians were. Everyone in Egypt was affected by the plague. About the gods having ruled the world in flesh and blood may very well be true. The human race is certainly much older than that, and if some of the ancient mega-structures around the world had been constructed by these people, they may very well have been regarded as 'gods'. If I recall correctly, there is a Sumerian king list that also dates back to around 11 000 years.

Sources not so different. Shared regional history and folklore.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

About the gods having ruled the world in flesh and blood may very well be true

Reminds me of Genesis 6:1-4. (An accurate understanding of this passage explains why God would bring the Flood.)


The Bible's description of this account is the "fodder", as they say, for the ancient Greek, Roman, Hindu, and Norse myths where "the gods" ruled, and sired children with human women.

 

[9-18-1]

Moses is very likely based on the Egyptian Akhenaten - son of Amenhotep III who tried to install monotheism in Egypt: the god 'Aten'. As another poster indicated, the invention of Moses was probably to justify Israel.

In any event, if it is true "Moses" wasn't a Hebrew, but an Egyptian, there goes Judaism along with Christianity and Islam - all three Abrahamic religions a form of idol worship. Jews have their Moses, Christians have their Jesus, Muslims have their Muhammad, and the entire point of these religions is to make these central figures the best "example" for all people. This is all idol worship.

 

[Thief]

any indication that Moses actually wrote the first five books of what most people call the bible?

 

[9-18-1]

any indication that Moses actually wrote the first five books of what most people call the bible?

In the academic world they have settled on up to four authors - the notion that the Torah is the perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant word of god is the same pathology that Islam adopted with its Qur'an. Such "beliefs" are not only false, but destructive as books are being imbued with an authority they don't actually have. This is the reason for much of the divisiveness on the planet.

 

[Thief]

In the academic world they have settled on up to four authors - the notion that the Torah is the perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant word of god is the same pathology that Islam adopted with its Qur'an. Such "beliefs" are not only false, but destructive as books are being imbued with an authority they don't actually have. This is the reason for much of the divisiveness on the planet.

yeah.....we are divided
in soooooo many ways

but I believe that each occasion of embodiment produces a unique soul
and that was the intent from the very beginning

Genesis is credited to Moses
I see no gain to take that away

the story I got.....has Moses ascending a mountain said to be God's own
trespassing is not allowed

why then would an eighty year old man climb to such a place?

I believe......Moses went upon the mount to meet his Maker
he went there to die
no intention of return

story goes on