Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Who is Satan?
Who is Lucifer?
Do you think he is real?
Explain your beliefs regarding this
Who is Lucifer?
Do you think he is real?
Explain your beliefs regarding this
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Who/what is Satan? Who is Lucifer? //question for Christians only
- Thread starter Desert Snake
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Lucifer is just a coined name for Satan.
Although Satan is Not his real name, Satan is real according to Scripture.
Satan means resister
Devil means slanderer
Serpent means deceiver
Dragon means destroyer
Lucifer was the name of a Prince of Babylon. I don't believe he was the same as Satan. Satan was called the Accuser in the book of Job. In the Gospels, he tempted Jesus while he fasted for 40 days and 40 nights while he was preparing for his ministry. In our faith, he was called "The Enemy".
I understand Lucifer to be aspect of our being, in way Jesus is. Or in way any brother/sister can be (or is). The essence of Lucifer I understand as real. The name and connotations or projections of symbolism, not real, but may be useful depending on the seeker. Both (Lucifer and Jesus) provide a pathway to God, that is foremost found within own Self. Both may be used as Guides.
Satan is term for (chief) adversary that is identified as standing opposed to God, viewed as diametrically opposed to God (I think), but I think more accurate to say is diametrically opposed to Holy Spirit. I think it really does not help to utilize such an entity as if it is outside of own being, or use Satan as scapegoat for own thoughts that may (appear to) counter Holy Spirit's mission as ultimate Guide (in return to God/Home). Though, I think I get the appeal in doing so, and the rationale in wanting to disassociate from anything, or anyone, that is seen as hindering path to God. I just see it as irresponsible and honestly unreasonable. I do not see (external) Satan as real.
Reading between the lines of Genesis 3:6, I believe the point being made (albeit indirectly) is to not view adversary as external to own Self, thus not the Serpent that (actually) lead to Adam's predicament.
When I started writing this post, I didn't think I'd reference scripture at all, and leaving the above assertion on Genesis where it is, is perhaps a bit confusing, but really am just trying to make the simple point that Satan (or perception of opposing God) is not an external process. Perceiving it that way is scapegoating and acting irresponsible.
Satan is term for (chief) adversary that is identified as standing opposed to God, viewed as diametrically opposed to God (I think), but I think more accurate to say is diametrically opposed to Holy Spirit. I think it really does not help to utilize such an entity as if it is outside of own being, or use Satan as scapegoat for own thoughts that may (appear to) counter Holy Spirit's mission as ultimate Guide (in return to God/Home). Though, I think I get the appeal in doing so, and the rationale in wanting to disassociate from anything, or anyone, that is seen as hindering path to God. I just see it as irresponsible and honestly unreasonable. I do not see (external) Satan as real.
Reading between the lines of Genesis 3:6, I believe the point being made (albeit indirectly) is to not view adversary as external to own Self, thus not the Serpent that (actually) lead to Adam's predicament.
When I started writing this post, I didn't think I'd reference scripture at all, and leaving the above assertion on Genesis where it is, is perhaps a bit confusing, but really am just trying to make the simple point that Satan (or perception of opposing God) is not an external process. Perceiving it that way is scapegoating and acting irresponsible.
Who is Satan?
Who is Lucifer?
Do you think he is real?
Satan, known as Lucifer before he sinned, wanted to be equal with God. It’s in the Bible, Isaiah 14:12-14, NKJV. “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . . Satan was not created sinful. He was created perfect and chosen to be closest to God out of all the angels. It’s in the Bible, Ezekiel 28:14, NKJV. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you....
Satan is very real and spends his time inflicting his anger against the human race. It’s in the Bible, Revelation 12:12, NKJV. “…Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Satan was once an angel in heaven. It’s in the Bible, Revelation 12:7-9, NKJV. “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
We also learn in the Bible that Satan is a dangerous enemy. He is a serpent who can bite us when we least expect it. He is a destroyer (Revelation 12:11) . . . He has great power and intelligence, and a host of demons who assist him in his attacks against God’s people (Ephesians 6:11).
He is real and he is a dangerous deceiver. If he can convince 1/3 of the angels in heaven to follow him don't think for a minute that he can't deceive us mere humans. He is trying to keep as many as possible from going to heaven. That is why the Apostle Paul insists that we always have on the Armour of God to resist those fiery darts of the devil.
ronandcarol
Who is Lucifer?
Do you think he is real?
Satan, known as Lucifer before he sinned, wanted to be equal with God. It’s in the Bible, Isaiah 14:12-14, NKJV. “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . . Satan was not created sinful. He was created perfect and chosen to be closest to God out of all the angels. It’s in the Bible, Ezekiel 28:14, NKJV. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you....
Satan is very real and spends his time inflicting his anger against the human race. It’s in the Bible, Revelation 12:12, NKJV. “…Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Satan was once an angel in heaven. It’s in the Bible, Revelation 12:7-9, NKJV. “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
We also learn in the Bible that Satan is a dangerous enemy. He is a serpent who can bite us when we least expect it. He is a destroyer (Revelation 12:11) . . . He has great power and intelligence, and a host of demons who assist him in his attacks against God’s people (Ephesians 6:11).
He is real and he is a dangerous deceiver. If he can convince 1/3 of the angels in heaven to follow him don't think for a minute that he can't deceive us mere humans. He is trying to keep as many as possible from going to heaven. That is why the Apostle Paul insists that we always have on the Armour of God to resist those fiery darts of the devil.
ronandcarol
Back in Jesus time, the Jews (Hebrew or Aramaic speakers) adapted the Pharisaic concepts including an immortal soul, and eternal hell. Jesus never pointed out that this is in error. He actually applies the same concepts. He implied that there's nothing wrong with the Pharisaic preaching.
Matthew 23:2-3 (NIV2011)
2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
I had a direct encounter with him, so I bet that no one knows him better.
Those false religious leaders 'sat themselves' as Dr. of the Law in the judgement seat of Moses - Matthew 23:2-3
The Pharisees made a pretence of honoring God while craftily promoting their own selfish agenda .
It was their rules, their regulations, their traditions :
- Matthew 15:9; Mark 7:2-4; Mark 7:4-6; Mark 7:7-9; Mark 7:10-12
Jesus denounced them - Matthew 5:27-29
The Pharisees built up a system of worship saying it had God's approval, but that's Not what Jesus said.
They sat themselves in the ' temple ' (house of worship) as if they were God when in reality they were anti-God.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
Their religious house of worship was abandoned by God according to Matthew 23:38
That is why Jesus pronounced his many ' woes ' against them along with his reasons why:
- Matthew 23:13; Matthew 23:15-16: Matthew 23:23-25; Matthew 23:27-28; Matthew 23:33-35
Jesus rejected them, and he transferred his favor to a new nation, a spiritual nation - Matthew 21:43; Acts 7:51;
1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5
Satan is the Accuser. In Jewish thought, he is a servant of God who just gives us choices. In Christianity, he is the Devil (the opposer), the one who whispers evil thoughts into the hearts of men, to corrupt them in darkness and guide them into evil ways. He ultimately seeks the destruction of all mankind to spite God, Who cast him out of Heaven before the world was made.
Now this one's a pain, because some say Lucifer and Satan are the same person (this is probably the vast majority view within Christianity). The name Lucifer means "light-bearer". In that sense, one could very well argue that Jesus is a Lucifer (light-bearer) and every Christian who has the light of Christ within them is also a Lucifer (light-bearer). But the PERSON Lucifer, according to Christian lore, was a very high-ranking angel, who is generally believed to have tried to usurp God, and was thrown out of Heaven with a third of the angels, and became Satan.
Note: Lucifer the angel not to be confused with several Saints named Lucifer, none of whom were named after Satan.
Yes, I do believe that there are spiritual forces that are intrinsically hostile to God and mankind (demons). And Satan is the leader of these demons.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Satan, simply, is the adversary. Not necessarily a hard and fast entity, but a term that is placed on many different individuals at different times. One of my favorite books is the Book of Job, and there, it is a bit different. Satan seems to take on a steady figure, that of an angel, in the court of G-d, who is tasked with testing free will. Again, an adversary, but one that is in the court of G-d, and thus under G-d's command.
A mistake. It was a mistake made by Jerome while copying texts. It was later corrected, but some jumped on it, and attributed it as a name for Satan, and from there, it has ran wild.
Satan, as in the traditional Christian thought, I don't think exists. I don't believe that a loving G-d would create a being like Satan, as I can't find that loving at all.
In a more modern Christian sense, I can see Satan as being an adversary, in that we all have inner demons that we must fight. (I mean metaphorical demons). We all have issues that keep us from our full potential, or things that keep us from doing what could be beneficial. I still don't see Satan as being an actual entity, but a metaphor.
You're Not alone in thinking of Satan a a metaphor, but according to Jesus' recorded words the adversary in Eden is a real Satan - John 8:44; Revelation 12:12: Revelation 12:9; Revelation 20
James 1:13-15 shows each one is drawn out by his own desire.
Satan was drawn out by his own selfish desire for humans to worship him over God.
When Adam and Eve broke God's Law they chose Satan as their god.
Satan the ' god ' of this world of badness - 2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan brings ' woe ' to Earth in the sense that he is influencing behind the scenes pulling the strings as a puppeteer does with his dummies. ALL the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7 - and since Satan is a sinner he must pay the price that sin pays. Jesus will destroy wicked Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
...and I would like to take the liberty to add that 'Satan is trying to keep as many as possible from having an earthly resurrection.' ALL who died before Jesus died are Not called to heaven - John 3:13
That includes people like Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13 and King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34
They can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth during Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth. That is why the ' future tense' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection..... Even the faithful ones of Hebrews chapter 11 have Not yet seen the fulfillment of God's promise - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39 - but are still asleep in the grave until All families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healthy physical resurrection back to life on a beautiful paradisical Earth when mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Satan is also trying to keep as many as possible from remaining alive on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37 - when the haughty figurative haughty ' goats ' will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7 - while the figurative humble ' sheep ' can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth, right into the start of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over the Earth in righteousness when the humble meek will inherit the Earth, the earthly realm of God's kingdom with Jesus as king of God's kingdom.
- Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:10-11; Proverbs 2:21-22
Interesting. I did not know this.
ZooGirl02
Well-Known Member
Satan is the leader of the demons. He once was a powerful angel but he fell and is now a demon himself. That said, I think you might find this article very interesting. It contains a lot more information than what I provided:
http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/who-or-what-was-lucifer
This article from the New Advent Catholic Encylopedia is also very informative:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm
http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/who-or-what-was-lucifer
This article from the New Advent Catholic Encylopedia is also very informative:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
What I understand is that Lucifer was perfect for all eternity until the on start of satan, then Existence, and All Things became fallen angels but only later on. When God gave free will, Omniscience could not determine let alone sever himself from All, and that were that, or how so it were told.
fALLen
fALLen
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To me, Luke chapter 4 shows a conversation between Jesus and Satan is Not talking to a metaphor.
God did Not create a ' Satan " but Satan made himself into a Satan and a Devil - please see James 1:13-15
Each one ( everyone in heaven and on earth ) makes their own choices being drawn out by one's own desires whether for the good or bad.
Satan brings ' woe ' to Earth according to Revelation 12:12.9 but so does our own imperfections and bad choices.
.....and to me, the King of Tyre of Ezekiel 28:12 also stands for, or represents, Satan. - Ezekiel 28:2
I too don't believe he was the same as Satan, but he too was an enemy.
He just represents Satan because the King of Tyre was never in Eden as Satan was -Ezekiel 28:13-17
That is from a journal I have on the site. In the first two bullet points is an argument that sin is itself treated as an active antagonist within people. Sin gets personified right in Genesis, and Christianity picks up in it. The set of points attempts to connect the dots between the NT and the Genesis text explaining that sin in people is The Evil One. That being said, 'Satan', is more generic and can refer to anything from individuals, to the cabinet you just bumped your head upon.
Also I think Shiranui's post is fairly accurate and represents a lot of useful information.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Well notice it switches from talking about the "prince" of Tyre(who is obviously a human) to the "king" of Tyre. That's important because in ancient Tyre as in most ancient cities they would have a certain "patron" god or goddess. This patron god would be considered the "king" of Tyre. The ancient people of Tyrus(also known as Tyre) would have probably known "Baal" as the king of their city. He was again considered the "king of the gods" in Canaanite mythology. This Baal is identified elsewhere as satan by the Hebrew prophets.
In Isaiah 14 he is identified with the "king of Babylon". This is interesting because no doubt Marduk the patron god of Babylon would have been considered also the "king of Babylon". He was after all the "king of the gods" and is equivalent to the Canaanite "Baal".
In verse 13 it says "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" This word "north" in Hebrew is Zephon and is the name of the mountain that the Canaanites believed was the dwelling place of none other than Baal. The connection between Marduk and Baal is obvious from the ancient pagan perspective. The ancient pagans regularly equated their own pantheons to those of foreign nations. Thus Marduk and Baal would have been equated as the same god. The fact that Marduk was also called Bel Marduk is also well known. Marduk even throws lightening bolts in one legend.
In Matthew and Mark "beelzebub" is identified as the prince of devils. This is most likely the same Baalzebub the god of Ekron that is mentioned in 2 Kings chapter 1.
Finally in the book of Revelation chapter 2; the city Pergamos was identified as the place where satan has his seat. This city (also known as Pergamon) had an altar to Zeus that was shaped as a seat or throne. Thus, satan is most likely being identified with Zeus was considered the king of the gods by the Greeks and is also the god of lightening and thunder just as the Canaanite Baal who was the god of storms. Again it's important to understand that to the ancient pagans all these gods were the same but just named differently by different nations.
In conclusion, Satan is Biblically identified with Baal, Marduk and Zeus. The similarities between these gods mean they would have been considered as one and the same by the ancient pagans. Here we have a clear identity for satan who truly has been the counterfeit god throughout the ages. And in the portrait of these deities we find the way satan wants people to view him.
Of further interest is how each of these gods was not the original god but became the king of the gods. For example Zeus had to defeat the titans including his own father Cronos. Here we see satan's rebellious nature.
So while the mythology surrounding these pagan deities is what satan would like to think about himself; the Bible pictures satan in a different way. In Revelation chapter 12; it shows him in a way reminiscent of "Lotan" who was the ancient Canaanite 7 headed dragon who lived in the sea. This Lotan is probably one with Leviathan of the book of Job. The knowledge of such a creature was common in the ancient near-east. The Greeks knew of "Hydra" who had 7 heads according to some. The reason this knowledge was so well known was because it was in the knowledge of certain constellations. The book of Job is probably speaking of a constellation when it mentions the "crooked serpent" (Job 26:12). This crooked serpent constellation is probably the constellation Hydra which comes from the ancient Babylonian snake constellation. In Isaiah 27:1 the crooked serpent is again mentioned in connection with the "dragon that is in the sea".
In the Bible Leviathan is:
stirred up(or awoken) by witchcraft (Job 3:8)
Young's Literal Translation: Let the cursers of day mark it, Who are ready to wake up Leviathan.
Psalm 74:15 has multiple heads, in Hebrew head is plural
Job 41:1-34, called king of the proud. (This is clear sign of satan who sinned because of pride) He is fierce fighter, powerful foe
Job 26:13 crooked serpent – likely to be constellation “Hydra” - from Babylonian snake constellation.
In Sumerian mythology: Ninurta kills 7 headed serpent called “mus-sag”