ppp
Well-Known Member
That is never going to happen. Anyone whose "solution" requires that the world adopts their religion is merely posturing They are not looking for a solution to anything.
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Why ‘us vs them’?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, they don't have a workable, practical solution.
How would they solve the war in Ukraine? They'd have all the other nations of the world rise up against Putin and Russia.
The war in Gaza? Who are they going to fight? For both sides, the enemy is mixed in with innocent civilians.
But Baha'is don't believe war and killing is the solution. So, what are they going to demand the opposing sides do?
The Baha'i solution is to have a grand "World Tribunal". If people or countries have a problem, take it to the Tribunal and let them decide. Both sides would have already agreed to abide by the decision. And if they don't? The Tribunal would force them?
So long as these prejudices [religious, racial, national, political] survive, there will be continuous and fearsome wars.
To remedy this condition there must be universal peace. To bring this about, a Supreme Tribunal must be established, representative of all governments and peoples; questions both national and international must be referred thereto, and all must carry out the decrees of this Tribunal. Should any government or people disobey, let the whole world arise against that government or people.
(“Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá”, p. 249)
It's like this thread... The solution to "us vs. them" is for all of the people to love and accept each other. Yeah, that would work. All Baha'is have to do is get people to love and accept each other. But right here on this forum and in this thread, Baha'is can't even do that.
So, the solution depends on us agreeing with them and to "heed" the councils of their prophet, Baha'u'llah.
I try to treat others as equals by looking at our common humanity and not our differences of understanding.
But this is a debating forum. A place where people are supposed to question things like the Resurrection or if Muhammad was the last Prophet or Buddha taught about God or not without fear of alienating others. If people are alienated by different viewpoints then a debating forum is not for them. Beliefs and theories being challenged and questioned and to share and learn in a spirit of humility is why we are here. Those who only want others to agree with their views and interpretations this forum is not for them. Better interfaith or their own DIR where they can’t feel alienated because their views aren’t questioned like they are in debates section.
Debating requires maturity not to get offended or feel alienated just because a different viewpoint is presented. If we’re all going to cry every time a view is expressed that we don’t like and accuse those presenting them of alienating others then we are denying them the right of freedom of expression which is a denial of a basic human right.
Recently I held a devotion meeting where a Christian and a Hindu attended. The Hindu chanted Bhajans about Shiva and Krishna. The next day the Christian phoned me and expressed indignation that the ‘false gods’ of Shiva and Krishna were prayed to. Now the person has cut all contact with us and this is so sad because what this person is saying is that only Christ is true and all the beliefs of the other 5 billion people on earth are false and must be shunned. Now the person has cut all contact with us and that Hindu. This is clearly prejudice that is the cause of alienation as it is often here because having different understandings should not cause us to feel alienated or offended if we are mature adults.
Not in my view it isn't. Denying you a human right in my view would look like censoring you for saying non demonstrably harmful things which alienate others to me. Merely observing that your views alienate others but allowing you to say those alienating views does not do that in my view.
In fact it is ironic that you are crying over others expressing the view that your view alienates others whilst saying we should not cry over the expressions of others that we don't like in my view.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
For all the things in religion that say things like "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", there's verses that have a particular people being "God's" people and other people being the enemies of their God.
I think that you could even find verses in the Baha'i Faith that have some people being wrong and being the "enemies" of the people of God. There are just some claims and beliefs in religions that other people in some other religion are not going to agree with and say are false... even the Baha'i Faith.
Like... what you going to tell a Fundy Christian? "I love you and respect your beliefs.... except the ones I don't agree with." You know you're going to cause an argument and alienate them.
And you know they're going to tell you that you've been misled, and that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet and is not the return of Christ.
So again, liberal believers in a religion that don't take their beliefs that extreme, as being the only right ones, are going to be able to get along with others. But how far are Baha'is willing to go to compromise their beliefs that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the promises of all the other religions?
If Baha'is do that, and they do, they are still putting themselves above the other religions.
It all depends on whether what we say is true or not. If Baha’u’llah is Christ returned in the glory of the Father then we are doing Christians and all humanity a great service by informing them of the good news.
I do not believe the Bible teaches there is such a living creature as Satan. It is simply a symbolical term for the ego of man from which all evil arises. Man is responsible for wars, prejudice and hatred no one but him. And to palm it off on some fictitious character is to run away from responsibility for our actions. That which we sow, that we will reap which clearly states we humans are responsible for the mess we’ve created no one else.
Galations 6: 7-9
A man reaps what he sows.8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature [1] will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, if the Baha'i Faith is true, it is the most important message in the world. However, it contradicts all the other messages given in the other religions. Just like your post where you say, "I do not believe the Bible teaches there is such a living creature as Satan. It is simply a symbolical term for the ego of man from which all evil arises." Other than the Baha'i Faith teaching that Satan is "symbolic" where in the Bible does it make it clear that "Satan" is symbolic for the lower nature of humans?
Since Christians took it as literal, was it all that clear? And the other "symbolic" thing... For Christians, was it all that clear that Jesus didn't literally come back to life? Either Baha'is are wrong, or Christians are wrong? For some people, me included, there's lots of things that I believe are wrong about Christian beliefs. But that doesn't help prove the Baha'i Faith is true. It makes me mistrust all claims made by religious people.
And it is many of the Baha'i interpretations of the Bible and the NT that makes me question the Baha'i Faith. I think Christians are right about their interpretations of some of those beliefs they hold. I don't believe the Baha'i interpretation that they were meant to be "symbolic.' But... I don't necessarily believe those things said in the Bible and the NT are true.
Creation? The Flood? Parting of the Seas? Even the resurrection of Jesus... I, as I imagine you know by now, I take as religious myth. I believe the stories were told in a way to be believe as being true. So, for me, it doesn't help for the Baha'is to try and say they were meant to be "symbolic". I don't believe that. I believe they were meant to be taken as true.
Eve did Not have to listen to the serpent. Adam did Not have to listen to Eve. They reaped what they sowed.
So, 'yes' we reap what we sow (who we listen to). We have all inherited imperfection from fallen-father Adam
- Romans 5:12; 8:6,13
We will be paid back according to our choices - Romans 2:6-8
Endure to the end - Matt. 24:13 - endure faithful to the end of one's life (Rev. 2:10) or be found faithful at Jesus' coming Glory Time as mentioned at Matt. 25:31-34,37
We all can choose to be a figurative humble 'sheep' or a haughty 'goat'
As Christian Scripture says that Christ returned in the glory of his Father as recorded at Hebrews 9:24
The glory of his Father meaning: into Heaven itself resurrected Jesus appeared in the presence of God on our behalf.
Truly good news in our favor.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do religions like the Baha'i Faith put their prophet's teachings out there as if they only "theories"? No, for Baha'is they are the absolute truth from an invisible, unknowable God. When they are put out there as if they are the one and only truth, then people in the other religions are going to challenge those claims of the Baha'is. The only thing it can produce is an "us vs. them" situation.
A spirit of humility would be nice, but Baha'is are just as guilty of expecting their views and interpretations to be taken as the truth. But that doesn't mean we can't debate about it. And we have. But the debates end up going nowhere. There's not any provable evidence either way. It all depends on who and what a person wants to believe.
For me, an important point is that most any religion will work and is working for those that believe in it. That kind of shows that it isn't what a person believes, but if they believe it. Their beliefs become true for them. How do you debate and argue against that? How do you tell them that their beliefs are wrong?
If those people aren't pushing their beliefs on others, then there isn't much of a problem. But how many religions don't try and promote their religious beliefs as being true?
Even Baha'is. They might not call what they do "proselytizing", but they are called to go out and "teach" the Baha'i Faith. Which ends up being very similar. It's Baha'is telling others how the teachings of the Baha'i Faith are what's needed to fix the problems of the world. And that Baha'u'llah is the return of whichever prophet/Christ/Messiah/messenger that was promised in any of the other major religions.
Is that true? Well, let's talk about and see just how true it is.
Yeah, and with rejection of the Baha'i god comes slanders attached in my view, for example for not seeing the Baha'i god we have impure hearts etc lol and yet a certain Baha'i wants to claim he is opposed to us vs them - yeah right, pull the other leg.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
No matter if the Baha'i Faith is true or false, it's going to cause an "us vs. them" situation. If they are right... Those that reject the Baha'i Faith are "them"... The bad people, the blind, the godless.
But if the Baha'i Faith is false... Then they are the "them". Those poor misled, gullible people that fell for a religious cult.
I don't know if the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith are universal enough to ever be accepted by everyone. In not, then there will always some people that will be "them"... the ones that just refuse to believe. And can the Baha'i world tolerate dissenters?
Baha’u’llah came to bring the consciousness of the oneness of mankind NOT to convert every person on the planet to the Baha’i Faith. Thats what isn’t clearly understood by most. He didn’t come to establish His or Baha’i Supremacy but to promote unity amongst people by considering all as members of one human family. Baha’u’llah teaches universal unconditional acceptance of all people which includes everyone. When that thought permeates society whether the world accepts Baha’i or not, Baha’u’llah’s job is done.
How does this operate? It’s new and feels threatening to those who want the world to accept only one religion or one nationality imposing itself on the rest. Often it results in wars caused by religious or national hatreds or racial hatreds. The world is still struggling to accept it is all one family and so there is so much violence and conflict. Universal travel and communication from science has united us physically but not politically or spiritually.
Baha‘is on the other hand are people who are ‘thrown together’ because of their belief in the oneness of all humanity but it is a huge test for us as we must then mix with and try to get along with and consider as brothers and sisters those who come from conflicting backgrounds. This is a work in progress. Many of us have prejudices but our hearts are open enough to admit and recognise this and see the teachings of Baha’u’llah regarding the oneness of mankind as the best way for us to learn to become free from prejudices, better people and better servants of society.
Before the world can improve we people need to change and be more accepting of one another but it’s much easier said than done. In a Baha’i community one has a wonderful opportunity, because of the diversity, to learn to overcome one’s prejudices.
When we regularly read things like - “ye are the leaves of one branch and the fruits of one tree.“ Regard ye not one another as strangers and “do not look at racial differences but see all with the eye of oneness” and “ the earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens” what thoughts and emotions these Words provoke are ones of acceptance of all regardless. So to me, the Baha’i community and exposure to Baha’u’llah’s Words for this age can really help eliminate all forms of prejudice.
So do you think scholar Edward Granville Brown misremembered these words of Baha'u'llah?;
We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come….
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages ix-xiv
If so why does Abdul-Baha affirm it?
You can see Abdul-Baha affirms it on page10 of Divine Philosophy here;
Bahá’u’lláh's Purpose | Bahá’í Quotes
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
@loverofhumanitySo do you think scholar Edward Granville Brown misremembered these words of Baha'u'llah?;
We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come….
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages ix-xiv
If so why does Abdul-Baha affirm it?
You can see Abdul-Baha affirms it on page10 of Divine Philosophy here;
Bahá’u’lláh's Purpose | Bahá’í Quotes
bahaiquotes.com
My introduction to the Baha'i Faith was very much like you described in your post preceeding the one I have quoted here. My understanding is that it was not a faith intent on growing, but its tenents of oneness and unity expected, in time, to seep into other faiths until all were on the same path.
In example, the JWs, also, believe in a world to come of one faith, and one world government, as does Judaism (and Christianity, although I'm not sure about Islam) However JWs believe in proselytizing as only their members will qualify for citizenship in this new world. Judaism does not believe in drawing in converts for they believe all are eligible to be chosen based upon their readiness. So, per this quoted piece, where do Baha'is stand on the qualifications required for acceptance in this new world? Baha'is only, or any faith follower who lives the will of God, however God is envisioned?
The Baha’i Faith is a means to an end, the unity of mankind. So when we can all accept each other unconditionally we can then live as a family without wars. how that comes about we don’t know exactly. But over time as humanity matures it will tire of war and realise prejudices are the cause and adopt a more conciliatory attitude towards one another. Baha’u’llah came to promote love and unity not supremacy of any sort and if His teachings help bring that about then His Mission has been accomplished.
The new world, for it to be reborn needs only for people to accept all unconditionally as one family. No membership in any organisation is required nor belief in any particular religion. All humanity are included with their diversity and imperfections. No exclusiveness or anything like that.
That all nations become one in Faith and diversity of religion cease is more an outcome of accepting the oneness of mankind than a condition or requirement as Baha’u’llah teaches the independent search for truth so it is up to every person to choose their own path. But I believe our world will be in a much better condition when we can set aside our prejudices and just accept each other as fellow humans.
There is no such requirement that a person must become a Baha’i to enter a new world. All are one. All are included. We just promote the oneness of humanity but that includes accepting others of different beliefs. No need to change or become a Baha’i. That is a personal decision which religion if any people make for themselves which we are taught to accept and respect. But none of us Baha’is are perfect. We like many just want a peaceful, happy world.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Excellent -- that was my first introduction to the faith and I'm so pleased I hadn't misinterpreted. We can work towards this same goal from where we are, just as God can put us to His use, wherever we are.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And if all the "diversity" of religion cease... then which religion will be the only one left?
If all people are "one" and follow the same teachings that they believe came from God, why wouldn't they support the religious government that God has supposedly ordained?
If the Baha'i Faith is true, then great... Let's do it. But that is the question... Is Baha'u'llah really the promised one?
Just how "perfect" is this "new" world order of Baha'u'llah going to be? Looking at all the laws, how different are things going to be than with all the other religions that had a bunch of laws? They all had corrupt leaders. That all forced obedience on their people. They all killed or excommunicated anyone that didn't obey the authority of those in charge.
It's doesn't look like it's going to be all "Lovey dovey".
People will always choose their own beliefs but key is we will hopefully accept our oneness and reach a level of maturity where we are able to settle our disputes through consultation instead of confrontation. Whether in the future people choose one religion or ten religions the main thing is that they treat each other with respect and as equal fellow humans no matter what they believe.
What the future world will look like nobody knows. All we believe is that people will tire of wars and want peace. The one thing humanity has not tried is peace and once they do try it I believe nobody will want to return ever to wars again.
Baha’u’llah’s teachings and laws are an attempt to free the world of prejudices. Over time people can observe for themselves whether they work or not.
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