Why ‘us vs them’?

[Trailblazer]

Do you mean, by everyone practicing his teachings? It’s interesting to me that the Baha’i Faith focuses more on transforming society than some other religions, so I can see the appeal for people who are dreaming of a better world.

@TransmutingSoul said: The solution is easy. The entirety of humanity could bring the most great peace about tomorrow by embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.

I don't know what Tony meant, but I think the solution would be for everyone to recognize Baha'ullah as the latest Manifestation of God, the return of Christ, and the Promised One of all the religions, which is who Baha'is believe that He was. Of course we all know that is not going to happen, at least not within our lifetimes or even any time soon, the main reason for that being that people cling tenaciously to the older religions.

I believe it will happen because Baha'u'llah wrote that it will happen:

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

I’m supposing that you think that some day most or all people will be practicing Baha’u’llah’s teachings. Do you have any ideas about how that will happen, by what processes, and how long it might take?

As I said above, I think that will happen someday but I have no idea about how that will happen, by what processes, or how long it will take. I don't think anyone except God knows that.

How will more and more people find out about it, and what will be their reasons for wanting to learn more about it?

I think more people will find out about the Baha'i Faith when more Baha'is start doing what Baha'u'llah has enjoined us to do.......

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.” Gleanings, p. 278

“Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings, p. 330

I think that Baha'is need to consider proclaiming the message more important than the other Baha'i activities they are presently engaged in.
Nobody likes to get the kind of rejection we often get, so that is one reason Baha'is would rather be doing other things rather than teaching the Faith.

I don't have any interest in any of those other Baha'i activities, and I don't mind the rejection, I just want to do what Baha'u'llah enjoined me to do. It is true that Baha'is have to tend to other duties such as serving on the LSA, organizing activities in the community, and teaching Ruhi classes, but it seems to me that is all they do, at least in my community.

 

[Niatero]

I don't know what Tony meant, but I think the solution would be for everyone to recognize Baha'ullah as the latest Manifestation of God, the return of Christ, and the Promised One of all the religions, which is who Baha'is believe that He was. Of course we all know that is not going to happen, at least not within our lifetimes or even any time soon, the main reason for that being that people cling tenaciously to the older religions.

Thank you. Your response was very helpful.

That's what I see Baha'u'llah saying also, that part of the solution is recognizing him as what he calls a "Manifestation of God." According to him, practicing his teaching is useless without recognizing him as a Manifestation of God.

I believe it will happen because Baha'u'llah wrote that it will happen:

Because "God says so."

I think more people will find out about the Baha'i Faith when more Baha'is start doing what Baha'u'llah has enjoined us to do.......

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.” Gleanings, p. 278

“Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings, p. 330

That answers one of my questions. Thanks.

I think that Baha'is need to consider proclaiming the message more important than the other Baha'i activities they are presently engaged in.
Nobody likes to get the kind of rejection we often get, so that is one reason Baha'is would rather be doing other things rather than teaching the Faith.

I don't have any interest in any of those other Baha'i activities, and I don't mind the rejection, I just want to do what Baha'u'llah enjoined me to do. It is true that Baha'is have to tend to other duties such as serving on the LSA, organizing activities in the community, and teaching Ruhi classes, but it seems to me that is all they do, at least in my community.

So you don't have any interest in what your world council has been calling for Baha'is to do for more than 20 years? The council that Baha'u'llah's son and "infallible interpreter" says is a "source of all good" and is "freed from all error"?

(later) I'm thinking that one possible reason for most Baha'is not using online forums mostly or only as platforms for promoting their beliefs could be that they would see it as a violation of the spirit if not the letter of the forum rules and therefore contrary to their principles. (I won't feel bad if you retract your "like" )

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Rubbish. "embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah" is no more than your subjective opinion. It's not even in the starting blocks for being "a logical fact."

The message is that logical, so glorious, peace-bringing, love-creating, words and lessons that can sink into all hearts as they have into mine. I would give my life for that fact.

I used some of what Queen Marie of Romania said about the Message of Baha’u’llah and Abdul'baha, that is how logical it is, that from the common man to royalty, from all faiths and no faiths, people embrace that Message. It is so logical, it is global and will spead like wildfire.

Hang on the tide is turning, the ocean is just about to rush in, the Lesser Peace will soon be a necessity, that is how logical it is.

Regards Tony

 

[Niatero]

@Trailblazer @TransmutingSoul
The last part of my last post was a little bit unfriendly, which is against my rules for myself. Sorry.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks you. Your response was very helpful.

You're very welcome.

That's what I see Baha'u'llah saying also, that part of the solution is recognizing him as what he calls a "Manifestation of God." According to him, practicing his teaching is useless without recognizing him as a Manifestation of God.

That is how I see it as well. Recognizing Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God is our first duty, and our second duty is following His Laws.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 19

After that is following the many teachings if Baha'u'llah such as the social teachings, which will make this world a better place to live in.

Because "God says so."

If we believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God it is 'because God says so' since the essence of our belief in Divine unity is that is that the Will of God and Baha'u'llah are one and the same.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings, p. 167

That answers one of my questions.

I am sorry I did not answer your second question. I just noticed that after I posted my post.
You asked what will be their reasons for wanting to learn more about the Baha'i Faith. The answer is that I think peoples' reasons will vary depending upon what their interests are. If they are interested in social change for example, they might be interested for that reason. That is not what attracted me initially. I was more interested in Baha'u'llah's teachings about the soul and the afterlife.

So you don't have any interest in what your world council is calling for Baha'is to do? The council that Baha'u'llah's son and "infallible interpreter" says is the "source of all good and freed from all error"?

I am firstly interested in what Baha'u'llah wrote that we should be doing, and secondly in what Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi wrote
I am not going to follow the instructions of the UHJ if I don't think they align with the Baha'i Writings. That doesn't mean I am going to go against them, but I will take them with a grain of salt. I do not believe that the UHJ is infallible. I consider that to be dogma.

I'm thinking that one possible reason for most Baha'is not using online forums as platforms for promoting their beliefs could be that they would see it as a violation of the spirit if not the letter of the forum rules and therefore contrary to their teachings.

It would only be a violation of forum rules if Baha'is were proselytizing (trying to convince or convert people) but we are admonished not to do that anywhere. It is not a violation of Baha'i teachings to share and teach the Faith, the way we are instructed to do.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer @TransmutingSoul
The last part of my last post was a little bit unfriendly, which is against my rules for myself. Sorry.

I did not see anything that you said that was unfriendly.

 

[Trailblazer]

I won’t say that he doesn’t preach, but in that case he was answering a question from me, about what he thinks. I feel bad that answering my question got him in trouble. It makes me afraid to ask questions.

That was not a rule 8. You asked a question and Tony answered it. He was not stating his opinion as a matter of fact.
Just because a person has strong opinions that does not mean they are preaching or proselytizing.

 

[Secret Chief]

sink into all hearts

So your idea of logical facts sinking into all hearts includes homosexuals does it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So your idea of logical facts sinking into all hearts includes homosexuals does it?

Yes, why would it not?

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

It is so logical, it is global and will spead like wildfire.

And yet memes like this are laughing points by those familiar with the Baha'i community;

https://www.reddit.com/r/FormerBahai/s/za7GcLmhXK

 

[danieldemol]

Since Tony has made it clear that the only way Baha'i will permit "us vs them" to be abolished is by the whole world accepting the teachings of Baha'u'llah I feel that a few words concerning the self proclaimed "infallibility" of Baha'u'llah are relevant;

'Bahā’u’llāh is probably the only Prophet ever who has revised and changed the errors in his own writings, and the only erring infallible. Unfortunately, some people fail to see why these errors must not be committed by a divine figure who carries God’s messages. Some people fail to realize that God’s words don’t need to be edited, proofread, and changed, especially if they have been penned by the “Unerring Pen.” To make matters worse, the UHJ explicitly mentions that many of the changes were suggested to Bahā’u’llāh by an ordinary person: 481 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 71. 482 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 78. 483 This can be deduced from his statement “then they would be like your words,” which was uttered by Bahā’u’llāh to state that there must be a difference between the words of God and the words of the people and this difference exists in the grammatical conventions. 217 It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other.484 These words show how helpless Bahā’u’llāh was in correcting his errors. Every time he fixed the errors some more were found and he was again forced to make changes in the book and give out a new revised version. He even needed a fallible person to point out these errors and give him suggestions. Thus, the book was not revised once but numerous times. If these changes were made to “to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause” then why not change it accordingly once and shut the mouth of the opponents once and for all. Are the words of God some sort of joke that must be changed every time someone objects to them? The words of God are perfect they need not be changed for style and grammar. These acts by Bahā’u’llāh are in direct contradiction with the claimed infallibility and divine knowledge attributed to him. What is the difference between this Baha’i prophet and all other ordinary men who make mistakes and correct them later on? What kind of an Omniscient God do Baha’is believe in that cannot foresee the troubling consequences of his revelations and changes them multiple times and gives out newer versions and editions?!'

Source:
Twelve Principles:
A Comprehensive Investigation on
the Baha’i Teachings
Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali
Translated by: Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri
page 216-217

Which can be downloaded here: https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes, why would it not?

Because the Bahai religion is homophobic, sorry, traditional.

 

[Vinayaka]

Of all the ideas that I've seen in this thread, your approach looks the most promising to me. I've decided now to look for communities where there is less tribalism in the community than in the society around it, and try to see how that might have happened, with their practices as possible factors. See my post above. Do you know of communities that have been practicing the ideas that you have been practicing for a few generations, where the tribalism might be less than in the society around them? If so, is there anyway that I can find some information about them, to see what I think about that?

Tamil Nadu might possibly be one example, according to ChatGPT 3.5.

The most harmonious place I've been to in this regard was the island of Mauritius. It's very multicultural, and there seemed to be less animosity amongst groups than anywhere else I've travelled. For example, there was a common street language, French creole. Although English, Cantonese, Tamil, Hindi, Telegu, proper French, and others were present in the faith and other communities, everyone also spoke creole. There was also a lot of work by the government to promote it. They had more religious holidays, for various communities.

 

[Niatero]

The most harmonious place I've been to in this regard was the island of Mauritius. It's very multicultural, and there seemed to be less animosity amongst groups than anywhere else I've travelled. For example, there was a common street language, French creole. Although English, Cantonese, Tamil, Hindi, Telegu, proper French, and others were present in the faith and other communities, everyone also spoke creole. There was also a lot of work by the government to promote it. They had more religious holidays, for various communities.

Good. Thanks!

 

[Spice]

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

This is my first saved quote from Baha'i Faith that's going in my collection. I may not believe in following any man, but I never deny the words of the Spirit regardless of who's lips they pass. And I take these words by degree. My acceptance never entails all spoken by one who catches my ear.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Because the Bahai religion is homophobic, sorry, traditional.

The Baha'i Faith has God given laws. Laws are not predudices, they are given because it is the required standard to enable a balanced and workable global community.

All God given Faiths have laws on what are accepted morals, some choose not to consider why these laws are important.

The importance of the family unit, the unit required to give a balanced discipline, the unit needed to foster a balanced honesty, trustworthiness and truthfulness in our children, cannot be overstated.

The breakdown of this family unit, the breakdown of sure moral guidance to our children has engendered the current crisis of out of control child disobedience and crime waves, adding more and more to the decadence of wayward generations.

Humanity is reaping the results of godlessness.

The Bahai law is simple, no sexual relationships are allowed before marriage and marriage is between a man and a women, it is calling on all humanity to build a family unity based on morals and service to humanity, a unit that gives us the required boundaries that foster a progressive society.

There are billions that would agree that the family unit is required in such a context. It is only unbridled liberty that says otherwise, mankind needs boundaries.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I note the efforts of a wayward generation will now commence to attack the very foundation of basic moral Guidance, that is they will attack the foundation of God given laws in the attempt to hold on to their personal liberties. They will try to discredit all the wonderful loving and peace giving Guidance to maintain they ill conceived liberties.

It is what builds us vs them. Godlessness.

Bring it on, it is already recorded that this will happen, that this must happen before the majority will embrace the wisdom they once ridiculed, so let's hasten that day and bring about the Lesser Peace.

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

The Baha'i Faith has God given laws. Laws are not predudices, they are given because it is the required standard to enable a balanced and workable global community.

All God given Faiths have laws on what are accepted morals, some choose not to consider why these laws are important.

The importance of the family unit, the unit required to give a balanced discipline, the unit needed to foster a balanced honesty, trustworthiness and truthfulness in our children, cannot be overstated.

The breakdown of this family unit, the breakdown of sure moral guidance to our children has engendered the current crisis of out of control child disobedience and crime waves, adding more and more to the decadence of wayward generations.

Humanity is reaping the results of godlessness.

The Bahai law is simple, no sexual relationships are allowed before marriage and marriage is between a man and a women, it is calling in all humanity to build a family unity based on morals and service to humanity, a unit that gives us the required boundaries that foster a progressive society.

There are billions that would agree that the family unit is required in such a context. It is only unbridled liberty that says otherwise, mankind needs boundaries.

Regards Tony

No mention of homosexuality then. That's ok - this is all fine as your own personal subjective opinion. Not black and white logically derived facts though.

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's an updated list of ideas from this thread for solutions.

Harmony of science and religion...

This has come up in threads where Atheists were asking Baha'is for proof and evidence for the existence of their God. Here's a quote...

Until now it has been said that all religions were composed of tenets that had to be accepted, even if they seem contrary to science. Thanks be to God, that in this new cycle the admonition of Baha’u’llah is that in the search for truth man must weigh religious questions in the balance of science and reason... If one renounce reason, what remains? The sacred texts? How can we understand God’s commands and to what use can we put them without the balance of reason?​

​

The priests are attached to ancient superstitions and when these are not in keeping with science, the priests denounce science. When religion is upheld by science and reason we can believe with assurance and act with conviction... Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p.96; p.101-2.​

I don't recall Baha'is being able to offer any "science" to prove or show evidence for their God. Their God is invisible and unknowable. All we can know about him is what Baha'u'llah has told us. And, of course, what Baha'u'llah said about God was true, because he was sent by God.

Agreement between nations for response to invasions... A quote...

In 1891, in his Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Baha’u’llah wrote:​

..."They must put away the weapons of war, and turn to the instruments of universal reconstruction. Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him."​

​

Baha’i teachings call world unity and what the diplomats and world leaders refer to as “collective security” – requires peaceful nations to adhere to a binding pact that consistently opposes armed aggression and commits them to do everything in their power to stop all invasions and attacks.​

​

So, in the Baha'i plan, nations have already disarmed. As if that is going to happen. Somebody's bound to hide some weapons somewhere, just in case. But let's pretend that they did. Then what is this bad king attacking with? Rocks? Bows and arrows? Or... did this king have some machine guns, tanks and rockets hidden away? If so, then what are the "peaceful" nations going to use when they rise up against this evil king?

Anyway, Baha'is have never answered those questions. But what can they say?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No mention of homosexuality then. That's ok - this is all fine as your own personal subjective opinion. Not black and white logically derived facts though.

Laws are black and white, they set a required standard.

If they are open to interpretation, then sundary laws will set the requirements and guve clarity.

Regards Tony