CG, we know they work, we have embraced the concepts, the doubt is now ours.
It is your position reflected in that reply. All I have to think about is to make sure my daily actions reflect what was offered by Baha'u'llah.
Regards Tony
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Why ‘us vs them’?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
It is your position reflected in that reply. All I have to think about is to make sure my daily actions reflect what was offered by Baha'u'llah.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Again, thanks for responding. But how do you know the things proposed in Baha'u'llah's writings and in the Baha'i peace plan will work?
Even if all nations disarmed and pledged to obey the decisions of the World Tribunal, what about militant religious groups within a nation and drug cartels? They're not going to disarm. It would be like the Prohibition Era in the U.S., the mobs and gangsters had machine guns.
But I still don't see how the large, dominant nations will put themselves into a position where they can't force their will on the smaller, weaker nations.
But if say it will work, great. We'll see.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
More on that... Some of us have been in and around the Baha'i Faith and have seen how the community of Baha'is actually work. It's not perfect. Lots of people are left out of the circle. They joined but then become inactive.
Leaders in the local communities are just ordinary people. They are not trained to be religious leaders. The Baha'i Faith prides itself on not having a "paid" clergy. But that means that amateurs are running things. They going to make mistakes. But then who gets elected on to the nine-member assembly? And who gets elected to chair the assembly? It's a popular vote of who's the most popular.
I've asked what do large communities of Baha'is do with their 19-day Feasts. How does a community of a 100... or a thousand... or what if there was a Baha'i community of a million... how do the Baha'is get together and hold their Feast meeting?
Are things really working? Will the governing methods of the Baha'i Faith be able to run the world?
Firstly you and all need to get over the Baha'i running the world, the Baha'i's do not want to run the world and will not. The next step is the Lesser Peace, where humanity will choose a world legislative run by all the Nations. The foundation details to this have been given on numerous occasions.
The Baha'is already have a successfull world administration, so even though Baha'i have faults, the system addresses these issues and functions efficiently. So yes it is working. It is the embryo of what is to come.
Great thing is Baha'i come from all walks of life and everyone can be voted on to an assembly, not only the privileged and the educated, we have guidance who to vote for.
I saw all those questions you asked about 19 day feasts answered. Currently The feasts are broken down to neighbourhood level, so a large community may have 10 feast locations. The key here is this is only the embryo and when the time comes what has been envisaged in the wrirings of Baha’u’llah will be put in place by the Universal House of Justice when it deems the time has come to do just that. The Local Spiritual Assemblies will become 'House of Justice' and each location will have one.
"..The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counselors to the number of Bahá (9), and should it exceed this number it doth not matter..." Kitáb-i-Aqdas Baha'u'llah.
There are obvious reasons as to why this could not happen even at this time. No Nation will yet allow the Baha'i to run its own Houses of Justice and enact Baha'i Law, so most of it is on hold until the Bahai Universal House of Justice enacts it.
So it was Abdul-Baha that gave instructions for the setting up of special or secondary Houses of Justice which would be established in each country and would elect the members of the general or universal House of Justice. Shoghi Effendi interpreted this to mean that Houses of Justice would eventually be established at local, national, and international levels and be proceeded, from 1923 onward, with the formation of national Spiritual Assemblies, which he identified with the secondary Houses of Justice.
A brief history of the Baha'i Institution can be read here.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So, it's not and never will be "God's" Kingdom on Earth with his Christ leading it? Hmmm? What was all that about the government will be on his shoulders? Was that a promise for when the Messiah comes? Or... something that will happen way later, long after the "Christ" has come and gone? Here's some stuff...
The Golden Age is the third and final age of the Bahá’í Era. It is anticipated in the future and "destined to witness the emergence of a world-embracing Order enshrining the ultimate fruit of God’s latest Revelation to mankind, a fruit whose maturity must signalize the establishment of a world civilization and the formal inauguration of the Kingdom of the Father upon earth as promised by Jesus Christ Himself",[1] and will represent the "consummation of this glorious Dispensation" according to Shoghi Effendi.[2]
| “ | The tasks that remain to be accomplished during the course of the Formative Age are many and challenging. Additional epochs can be anticipated, each marking significant stages in the evolution of the Administrative Order and culminating in the Golden Age of the Faith. The Golden Age, itself, will involve “successive epochs” leading ultimately to the establishment of the Most Great Peace, to the World Bahá’í Commonwealth and to the “birth and efflorescence of a world civilization.” | ” |
| — The Universal House of Justice[2] |
| “ | Bahá’u’lláh gives the assurance that, through harmonious cooperation of patients, healers and the community in general, and by appropriate use of the various means to health, material, mental and spiritual, the Golden Age may be realized, when, by the Power of God, “all sorrow will be turned into joy, and all disease into health.” ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá says that “when the Divine Message is understood, all troubles will vanish.” Again He says:— When the material world and the divine world are well correlated, when the hearts become heavenly and the aspirations pure, perfect connection shall take place. Then shall this power produce a perfect manifestation. Physical and spiritual diseases will then receive absolute healing. | ” |
| — John Esslemont, Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era[3] |
God's Kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven is a prayer CG, a prophecy that can only be fulfilled by our own willingness to embrace the concept.
The promise is that we will eventually choose to follow God's Councels, but it was rejected in the 1800's and Baha'u'llah told us we must cling to a lesser peace, one built on the disarmament of and union of the Nations.
Baha'u'llah knew it would be a long time before humanity as a majority would embrace the given Message. Baha'u'llah said;
“The world is in travail and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then and only then will the Divine Standard be unfurled and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”
How long is long? We can get some idea by reading the many more prophecies given for this age. It is expected that there will be many conflicts, many civil wars around the globe. The stockpiling and use of weapons would beyond countries capacity to support the expenditure. Shoghi Effendi tells of a 3rd world conflict, so one can assume, given the results of the Russian/Ukraine and the Israel/Hamas conflicts (and others nit in the news), we know any future conflicts will impart damage on a catastrophic scale.
Baha'u'llah said that America will play the role of the default peacekeepers but has a great spiritual future. Shoghi Effendi has said America will suffer greatly as will the Nations that are in conflict against America and its Allies.
Yet these days will be cut short, an event that will suddenly cause the limbs of mankind to quake, will coincide with the lowest level of mankind's debasement. One could look at what is happening today and think that time may be fast approaching,but we just do not know.
We do know that after these events,mankind will rethink the direction it has been heading. It is also foretold that this will also be the time when many sitting on the fences, will finally embrace what Baha'u'llah has offered.
There is not much more we can offer on RF CG, we have been there and done that all in good intent and for the love of all humanity, and you have observed the results.
Regards Tony
I do not believe in the degree of hopelessness you express concerning tribalism, but do step back and promote a more detached universalist perspective to understand the nature of human belief and tribalism and how it may be addressed.
The problems of 'tribalism' are indeed endemic to the nature of humanity. At present I will not directly propose solutions, but provide insight in religious beliefs in relationship to tribalism. All religions and cultures are to certain extent tribal. but the problems is a matter of degree.
Most ancient religions do indeed define their identity in terms of tribal characteristics in terms of their exclusive doctrines and beliefs of their own identity and how the relate to reject the others usually claiming a unique relationship with God or Gods. The other is defining their identity based tribal succession as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Each religion in one way or another defines identity to exclusive tribal blood line succession of the prophets and rejects the others claims.
I do believe religions like Unitarian Universalists and the Baha'i Faith do believe in a more universal perspective, but all religions and institutions have limitations that I have to put into perspective of a greater universal. Yes the spiritual goals of the Baha'i Faith and UU appear idealistic and even unattainable by many, but I believe they will evolve and change to embrace a greater Universal than they do now'
The problem with the ancient tribal religions is they do not change.
more to follow . . .
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
It is how it is "offered". No matter how nice and how "loving" you try and say it, the Baha'i message is that all the other religions are now wrong. They were right, then got corrupted, and now have been replaced. How do you expect people in the other religions to respond? Baha'is are part of the "us vs. them" problem. You are right, and those that don't listen to the counsels of your prophet are wrong.
It's even worse when Baha'is debate with Atheists. An unseen and unprovable God that must be believed. And one of the proofs for this God is a person that is claiming God sent him. And how do we know God sent him? Because he said so, and he's telling the truth?
You can't act as if some of us here haven't looked at the teachings and claims of the Baha'i Faith. Some of us have, and, as of right now, we don't believe the claims are true.
The Message was given by God CG.
One can only pick and share all the good bits, but that would be dishonest. The Message given, God gave it all, it is given for all of us to consider.
If God offers that religions are abrogated when the New Messenger arives, then what would you like me to offer?
That goes for everything people do not want to hear, when God sends the Messengers.
Regards Tony
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yeah, you are one of them. Now question everything.
The Message was given by God CG.
One can only pick and share all the good bits, but that would be dishonest. The Message given, God gave it all, it is given for all of us to consider.
If God offers that religions are abrogated when the New Messenger arive, then what would you like me to offer?
That goes for everything people do not want to hear, when God sends the Messengers.
Regards Tony
Baha'u'llah has made it clear as to the station of an Athiest, they are victims of their own mind and choices. All these writings are not hidden, I will share them, as one day people will find them anyway.
Atheist | Bahá’í Quotes
The fire of hell is our own godless choices.
Regards Tony
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
The Message was given by God CG.
One can only pick and share all the good bits, but that would be dishonest. The Message given, God gave it all, it is given for all of us to consider.
If God offers that religions are abrogated when the New Messenger arive, then what would you like me to offer?
That goes for everything people do not want to hear, when God sends the Messengers.
Regards Tony
Baha'u'llah has made it clear as to the station of an Athiest, they are victims of their own mind and choices. All these writings are not hidden, I will share them, as one day people will find them anyway.
Atheist | Bahá’í Quotes
bahaiquotes.com
The fire of hell is our own godless choices.
Regards Tony
Now question everything including what you claim.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
You're not holding your breath are you?
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
You're not holding your breath are you?
No, but in practice there are 2 kinds of skepticism. The one to find the correct truth and claim it is know. The other to understand there is no the truth for all of the world.
Most people are of the first kind regardless of being religious or not.
Really us vs them is the fight we have with our own self, mirrored in the whole.
Regards Tony
Regards Tony
One qualification of the Baha'i view of the diversity of religious beliefs in the history of humanity are not specifically described as "wrong," it is described as reflecting the degree knowledge of God in the human cultures and views of God at the time, and the our human view of God and religion spiritually evolves over time. The basic premise of progressive Revelation.
Though the different diverse conflicting ancient tribal religions definitely do consider any other alternate religion and belief a dead "wrong."
I believe in a universal "Source" some call God or Gods, but from a detached universal objective perspective I can see the rational view of the atheist or gnostic that God and religions are human Creations. The severe illogical problem of contradictory belief in any one of the many diverse conflicting ancient religions as the One and only One belief in the One true God or Gods from a narrow ancient tribal cultural perspective.
Skepticism is good and healthy for keeping ones feet on the ground of reality and keeping one in a more universal perspective of reality
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Let's start with an easy one, Christianity... When was the message of any Christian Church ever true?
If we "consider" it... Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins. That all of us are sinners and deserve to spend eternity in hell. That we inherited a sin nature because Adam disobeyed God and got cursed. That Satan was cast down and is the "prince" of this world. He is out to deceive all of us and keep us from turning to Jesus. Satan's demons can actually possess people. But Satan and his demons and all people that don't turn to Jesus will be cast into hell.
And the Christian beliefs and doctrines go on and on with things that the Baha'i Faith say are not true. Yet, for 2000 years, Christianity has been one of the main religions that people were expected to "consider" as being true.
Did Islam abrogate it? It doesn't seem like it. They have their own beliefs that I don't "consider" true. How about you? Is everything taught in Islam true?
But now with the Baha'i Faith, it seems like Baha'is are told and expected to believe everything it teaches is the truth. A thing to "consider".... Every other religion that has told its followers to accept all of its teachings as the absolute truth from God, has been wrong.
Yeah, it kind of works now with Baha'u'llah. He has a message that includes all the people throughout the world. Has any other "manifestation/messenger" ever had a message that did that?
All the other messages and religions only worked for certain people in certain areas. And, to me, it seems much more likely that those people, in that area, invented things and took things from other religions and adapted them to make a religion that fit their society and culture.
But when you talk of "abrogating", we have lots of religions that had lots of different beliefs about Gods. And when a people were conquered by another people, their old religion was "abrogated". Or more accurately, outlawed and deemed as evil and false.
In many cases the conquering people were Christians. So, what did they replace the old religions with? A belief that Jesus was part of a Trinitarian God along with all those beliefs about Satan and hell and Jesus being the only way. So, one set of wrong beliefs replaced with another set of wrong beliefs.
So, should we just jump on board the Baha'i train? Or... should we investigate it and see where it's heading?
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
This is a misrepresentation. If you go back to 42:13 you'll see that belief in "that which has been revealed to you", (the Qur'an revealed to Mohamed), is required for this 'come together' moment to happen. In fact, as I'm sure you well know, the Qur'an is reffered to in this manner many times - and never in terms of it being an acceptable option to not beleive in it.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Yes. The Qur'an states:
1. That Jesus is neither the son of God, nor God himself.
2. That Jesus was not crucified (they crucified someone who looked like him)
3. Miracle ascribed to Jesus were performed by God through him.
4. Jesus was simply a prophet.
Anyone who calls himself a Muslim must, by definition, believe that every word in the Qur'an is directly from Allah (God), and thereforer that all of it is true.
The Bible is true CG, a sure spiritual guide. Thus it was truth from before the first word was uttered, it was truth from the beginning of time, that has no beginning and will still be the truth until the end that has no end. The foundation of all Churches is in truth.
The key is our own attempts of growing spiritually, living life in service to a cause, or if we tack religion on to our way of life. Our interpretations of Scripture are clouded by material world attachment.
Regards Tony