Why ‘us vs them’?

[CG Didymus]

My Baha'i experience was on an internet religious forum, but there were only two Baha'i participants to the best of my recollection. I would ask a couple of RF members that I believe were on that forum as well, but that wouldn't adhere to privacy that everyone is entitled to, so I'll chalk it up to a one-off situation and continue learning from whoever gives me the opportunity. Thx for responding

Well then you will probably be pleasantly surprised to go to a Baha'i gathering. They'll treat you as well or even better than online Baha'is.

 

[danieldemol]

The thing is i feel united and part of the one human race as @Vinayaka the Hindu, @Secret Chief the Buddhist, @CG Didymus the agnostic etc to name a few.

Proposing one religion to to unite us all when we seem to get along just fine in spite of our differences just seems to me like a redundant solution at best, and one which won't help at worst as every person taking a "my way or the highway" approach to unity seems to just result in squabbles when we are fine doing our own thing in my view.

 

[McBell]

Though there is an us vs them, in truth, God built unity and oneness into the matrix, the lack of this unity and oneness is the result of our choices. Faith has more to consider than just yes and no.

One has to read the many explanations on this topic. I can only make my choices, no one else's.

Regards Tony

You would appear much more honest if you were to just flat out say you are not going to answer.

 

[Spice]

The thing is i feel united and part of the one human race as @Vinayaka the Hindu, @Secret Chief the Buddhist, @CG Didymus the agnostic etc to name a few.

Proposing one religion to to unite us all when we seem to get along just fine in spite of our differences just seems to me like a redundant solution at best, and one which won't help at worst as every person taking a "my way or the highway" approach to unity seems to just result in squabbles when we are fine doing our own thing in my view.

It would also eliminate a lot of questioning that humankind needs in order to evolve properly. Diversity is good.

 

[Trailblazer]

What this means to me is that neither is acceptable without the other. So, is the person who follows His laws but is not a believer than Baha'u'llah at a lower grade than those who believe in Baha'u'llah but doesn't follow His laws?

No one can say for sure which one is more important than the other, but they are both important.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 19

The way I interpret that quote is that the first duty is the most important. After the first duty comes the second duty, to observe every ordinance of Baha'u'llah. That it is unacceptable to do the first duty and not the second duty means we must follow His laws.

The person who follows His laws but is not a believer than Baha'u'llah has not done his first and most important duty.
I suppose it is better to follow His laws than to not do so, but it is not acceptable to only do that.

The quote below only refers to Baha'is, (the people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God). These are the people who have done the first duty. It is not about people who follow His laws but are not believers in Baha'u'llah.

"The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 169)

 

[YoursTrue]

Due to lack of self-knowledge, human beings are bound to emotionally identify with their external identities related to race, religion, creed,
nationality,ideology, gender and so on leading to disharmony and conflicts. These external identities are functional identities which have their utility such as in passports and gender based washrooms.

As per eastern religious philosophy, when one does not know one's true identity of the Self, one is bound to identify with the external identities with heavy emotion, which is a recipe for strife.

seems reasonable.

 

[YoursTrue]

All the religions have their solution. Like the Born-Again Christians... "Repent, repent... For the Lord Jesus is coming soon." And their belief says that Jesus will annihilate the evil Kings and rulers of the world and establish God's kingdom on Earth.

So, again I ask... In what Scriptures in what religion has the "Promised One" coming back and not fixing things? As far as I know, they have things going bad, real bad, but then the Messiah comes, or Kalki, or Maitreya etc. and they solve the problems.

Things were bad when Baha'u'llah came... but then things got worse. And then he died. And things got even worse.

But maybe you're right. Although I have my doubts. I don't see how the Baha'i vision of a World Tribunal is going to work.

In fact, don't Baha'is believe that it won't? That the final step, someday, will be for "God's" laws and government to rule the world. In other words, the Baha'i Faith and its institutions will be the governing body for all the world? Yes, nine holy, spiritual men, since women are not eligible, will rule the world. Of course, they will follow the guidelines set down by Baha'u'llah. And, like I've asked before, what could go wrong?

It's almost like political leaders in some countries. After a few years in office, another leader takes his place. Then another leader after a few more years. And another. And another.

 

[Unfettered]

Are you American? If so, that appears to be half the country, which is severely divided about in half, half of which are hostile to peace, democracy, rule of law, church-state separation and egalitarianism. The right utterly detest the left. It's an existential battle there now. This is no time for kumbaya and no chance for that.

Yes, I am American. This is a time for civic education, sincere discourse, and civic discipline, which are the only things that will keep this, or any other, society from war and dissolution. It is a time not for warfare against one another, but for all to join in warfare against false morality and false liberty, battling with arms of honesty, speech and listening.

I am not hopeless, though the situation certainly is. For what we have are two partisan tyrants each seeking to subject the other to himself under a self-issued certification of righteousness. And when I say "two partisan tyrants," I'm not speaking of two individuals, but of two factions.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

what we have are two partisan tyrants

I was with you until this. I really do not understand this false equivalence. They are night and day to me.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well then you will probably be pleasantly surprised to go to a Baha'i gathering. They'll treat you as well or even better than online Baha'is.

When you went, how much of it did you consider it as friendship evangelism? The reason I ask is that when people leave, they tell stories of how those friendships often ended abruptly. Seems to me that if you show an interest in accepting the teachings, you get friends, but if you don't you don't.

 

[Vinayaka]

It would also eliminate a lot of questioning that humankind needs in order to evolve properly. Diversity is good.

Diversity is more than good. It's what makes this planet so special, so interesting. It provides something for everyone.

 

[Vinayaka]

The thing is i feel united and part of the one human race as @Vinayaka the Hindu, @Secret Chief the Buddhist, @CG Didymus the agnostic etc to name a few.

Proposing one religion to to unite us all when we seem to get along just fine in spite of our differences just seems to me like a redundant solution at best, and one which won't help at worst as every person taking a "my way or the highway" approach to unity seems to just result in squabbles when we are fine doing our own thing in my view.

Not just this, but a lot of religious leaders take that as their official stance. India has welcomed religious groups escaping persecution for a very long time. These days a ton of countries welcome refugees, and we (speaking for Canada) don't ask them to change their religion at all. In fact we encourage it.

 

[Niatero]

The thing is i feel united and part of the one human race as @Vinayaka the Hindu, @Secret Chief the Buddhist, @CG Didymus the agnostic etc to name a few.

Proposing one religion to to unite us all when we seem to get along just fine in spite of our differences just seems to me like a redundant solution at best, and one which won't help at worst as every person taking a "my way or the highway" approach to unity seems to just result in squabbles when we are fine doing our own thing in my view.

“One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.”
“Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.”
“All your base are belong to us!”

 

[Unfettered]

I was with you until this. I really do not understand this false equivalence. They are night and day to me.

To whom was I referring?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

To whom was I referring?

I assumed that you were referring to the two presidential candidates, Biden and Trump. Was that incorrect?

 

[Unfettered]

I assumed that you were referring to the two presidential candidates, Biden and Trump. Was that incorrect?

I was referring to the two largest partisan factions, which necessarily includes the two main candidates, but is not merely those two candidates:

And when I say "two partisan tyrants," I'm not speaking of two individuals, but of two factions.

 

[CG Didymus]

When you went, how much of it did you consider it as friendship evangelism? The reason I ask is that when people leave, they tell stories of how those friendships often ended abruptly. Seems to me that if you show an interest in accepting the teachings, you get friends, but if you don't you don't.

I didn't want to destroy the moment. I finally said something nice about Baha'is. But you are right. But it happens with Christians and cults and any other group that wants to get people to join them.

Like a guy on a date and he wants to make the girl think he's "the one", her "soulmate." Then later, sometimes after they get married, he changes, and she learns what he's really like. Sometimes it's after a date or two and she go to bed with him, and the next day he's gone.

I've talked about it before. I was with my Baha'i friends on "mass teaching" trips back in the 70's. They'd go to Indian Reservations, knock on doors and invite people to a meeting that night about the Baha'i Faith. Of course, they ask, "What is the Baha'i Faith?" That was the okay to "teach" them. They asked, so it's only answering their question. It's not proselytizing.

At the door or if they showed up at the meeting, they were treated like the most important person in the world. The "mass teaching" kind of worked, but the problem was... what do Baha'is do with them once they sign a declaration card and join the Baha'i Faith? These people were in remote areas and usually there was only a few, and maybe only one Baha'i that lived in the town.

The next plan was... how to "deepen" the new believers. In Idaho some of the Baha'i travel teachers started what they called a "nine-day deepening Institute." For the nine days a group of Baha'is along with some of the new Baha'is would go through two small books, Hidden Words and the Seven Valleys.

Old Baha'is and the new Baha'is were having profound spiritual experiences. Kind of like when Christians get "Baptized" in the Holy Spirit and start speaking in tongues. Some Baha'is even claimed they had visions of Abdul Baha. Things were great... then... The fuddy-duddy Baha'is got upset. I was told that the wife of a "Hand of the Cause" said that it was creating spiritual "haves and have nots."

Again, to compare it to similar people in Christianity, these would be the old time Church goers that didn't want to see change. Things were just fine the way they were... Sitting in a pew, listening to the same old hymns and listening to some old preacher drone on about the same old Bible verses. Compared to the Pentacostal Church down the road where the people were dancing in the aisles.

Anyway, the nine-day deepening institutes came to an end. I don't even know how much longer the "mass-teaching" trips continued. But, to tie in this story with how new people are shown love and kindness, the reality of the Baha'i community came into the picture. Like the pew-sitting, go to Church on Sunday Christians, there are Baha'is in the communities that just go through the motion of being a Baha'is. My Baha'i friends were bored silly with their community's monthly "Feast" meetings.

My Baha'i friends took me to other towns where more active, more dynamic and more charismatic Baha'is held "Fireside" meetings. So, love, energy, an interest in the person was always part of it.

But it also depended on a good host and speaker. Those meetings were always filled up, but not necessarily with "seekers". Baha'is would go there because of the energy and love.

So, how much of it was the teaching of the Baha'i Faith? I have to wonder because any religious group that showed love and kindness and had a charismatic leader attracted people and got them to join. Obviously, the teachings alone aren't doing it for some people.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I was referring to the two largest partisan factions, which necessarily includes the two main candidates, but is not merely those two candidates

OK. I guess I glossed over that. Sorry.

But I'd say the same thing about the Democrats and Republicans. The parties are very different. They have very little in common anymore. One is anti-American and pro-Putin now.

 

[Vinayaka]

I didn't want to destroy the moment. I finally said something nice about Baha'is. But you are right. But it happens with Christians and cults and any other group that wants to get people to join them.

Like a guy on a date and he wants to make the girl think he's "the one", her "soulmate." Then later, sometimes after they get married, he changes, and she learns what he's really like. Sometimes it's after a date or two and she go to bed with him, and the next day he's gone.

I've talked about it before. I was with my Baha'i friends on "mass teaching" trips back in the 70's. They'd go to Indian Reservations, knock on doors and invite people to a meeting that night about the Baha'i Faith. Of course, they ask, "What is the Baha'i Faith?" That was the okay to "teach" them. They asked, so it's only answering their question. It's not proselytizing.

At the door or if they showed up at the meeting, they were treated like the most important person in the world. The "mass teaching" kind of worked, but the problem was... what do Baha'is do with them once they sign a declaration card and join the Baha'i Faith? These people were in remote areas and usually there was only a few, and maybe only one Baha'i that lived in the town.

The next plan was... how to "deepen" the new believers. In Idaho some of the Baha'i travel teachers started what they called a "nine-day deepening Institute." For the nine days a group of Baha'is along with some of the new Baha'is would go through two small books, Hidden Words and the Seven Valleys.

Old Baha'is and the new Baha'is were having profound spiritual experiences. Kind of like when Christians get "Baptized" in the Holy Spirit and start speaking in tongues. Some Baha'is even claimed they had visions of Abdul Baha. Things were great... then... The fuddy-duddy Baha'is got upset. I was told that the wife of a "Hand of the Cause" said that it was creating spiritual "haves and have nots."

Again, to compare it to similar people in Christianity, these would be the old time Church goers that didn't want to see change. Things were just fine the way they were... Sitting in a pew, listening to the same old hymns and listening to some old preacher drone on about the same old Bible verses. Compared to the Pentacostal Church down the road where the people were dancing in the aisles.

Anyway, the nine-day deepening institutes came to an end. I don't even know how much longer the "mass-teaching" trips continued. But, to tie in this story with how new people are shown love and kindness, the reality of the Baha'i community came into the picture. Like the pew-sitting, go to Church on Sunday Christians, there are Baha'is in the communities that just go through the motion of being a Baha'is. My Baha'i friends were bored silly with their community's monthly "Feast" meetings.

My Baha'i friends took me to other towns where more active, more dynamic and more charismatic Baha'is held "Fireside" meetings. So, love, energy, an interest in the person was always part of it.

But it also depended on a good host and speaker. Those meetings were always filled up, but not necessarily with "seekers". Baha'is would go there because of the energy and love.

So, how much of it was the teaching of the Baha'i Faith? I have to wonder because any religious group that showed love and kindness and had a charismatic leader attracted people and got them to join. Obviously, the teachings alone aren't doing it for some people.

Thank you for the long explanation. I can easily see how getting onto the vibes of the moment would sure make it seem like it wasn't friendship evangelism. But I'm not sure if a person being unaware of it negates it. Just as we cross many bridges in a daily commute, not being aware of them doesn't negate their existence. From an outsiders POV, it would certainly seem that way. But I guess it would be in the mind of the member of a group being friendly. Do they see another potential convert, or are they just being friendly naturally.

Going around to indigenous people's seems sneaky to me. The Baha'i Center in my city is right close to where many indigenous people live too. They still seem to be a target for some reason.

Still a study in human behaviour for me, but thanks.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thank you for the long explanation. I can easily see how getting onto the vibes of the moment would sure make it seem like it wasn't friendship evangelism. But I'm not sure if a person being unaware of it negates it. Just as we cross many bridges in a daily commute, not being aware of them doesn't negate their existence. From an outsiders POV, it would certainly seem that way. But I guess it would be in the mind of the member of a group being friendly. Do they see another potential convert, or are they just being friendly naturally.

Going around to indigenous people's seems sneaky to me. The Baha'i Center in my city is right close to where many indigenous people live too. They still seem to be a target for some reason.

Still a study in human behaviour for me, but thanks.

I can see how the religious person might not even realize how they are behaving. But just imagine how different things would have been if a Baha'i had asked about your beliefs and actually seemed like they cared. You might be thinking, "Wow, what a nice person."

Then comes the switcheroo... "Well, you know my beliefs are very similar to yours. Here's what I believe..." It doesn't take long to realized that they don't care what you believe. It is all about getting you to hear about their beliefs.

And they probably don't realize it, but many of the titles to their threads do this. They seem innocent enough. And get people to respond and give their opinion, then things turn... "Well, what you say is not quite true. This is what I believe. And here is a quote from the Baha'i writings to prove that what I say is true..." How many quotes did they throw at you?

Even now, with that thread about recognizing Christ. Baha'is know that everybody is going to be wrong, because none of them recognized that the Baha'i prophet was the return of Christ.

But what can they do? They are commanded to spread the word.