Why ‘us vs them’?

[Truthseeker]

I also knew personally some of the people who were involved in the online feuding on all sides between Baha'is starting in the late 90s and going underground after three members were removed disqualified from the membership by their world council. Is there anything that you'd like to ask me, that I might be able to answer from my reading and experience?

I also heard about this. Essentially a few members lost their faith in the Baha'i institutions for reasons only they would know. They ended up losing their faith altogether in the Baha'i Faith. Most unfortunate.

 

[Niatero]

Thank you for the long explanation. I can easily see how getting onto the vibes of the moment would sure make it seem like it wasn't friendship evangelism. But I'm not sure if a person being unaware of it negates it. Just as we cross many bridges in a daily commute, not being aware of them doesn't negate their existence. From an outsiders POV, it would certainly seem that way. But I guess it would be in the mind of the member of a group being friendly. Do they see another potential convert, or are they just being friendly naturally.

A lot of the friendliness often ends, and sometimes even turns into antagonism after a person becomes a member. It's a hostile social environment sometimes for many members, maybe even most of them, for different people in different places, possibly the same as it is in the surrounding society, but maybe not as much.

It can be a reflection of the surrounding society, but also sometimes a result of prejudices and popular thinking in the local Baha'i community, which can be different from the surrounding society.

 

[Truthseeker]

Proposing one religion to to unite us all when we seem to get along just fine in spite of our differences just seems to me like a redundant solution at best, and one which won't help at worst as every person taking a "my way or the highway" approach to unity seems to just result in squabbles when we are fine doing our own thing in my view.

For me it is not "my way or the highway" and the same is true for just about every Baha'i I know.

 

[Truthseeker]

It would also eliminate a lot of questioning that humankind needs in order to evolve properly. Diversity is good.

That exactly how most Baha'is look at it. Unity in diversity, including in opinions and beliefs. I also re-evaluate my thinking all the time.

 

[Truthseeker]

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 19

The way I interpret that quote is that the first duty is the most important. After the first duty comes the second duty, to observe every ordinance of Baha'u'llah. That it is unacceptable to do the first duty and not the second duty means we must follow His laws.

The person who follows His laws but is not a believer than Baha'u'llah has not done his first and most important duty.
I suppose it is better to follow His laws than to not do so, but it is not acceptable to only do that.

The quote below only refers to Baha'is, (the people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God). These are the people who have done the first duty. It is not about people who follow His laws but are not believers in Baha'u'llah.

"The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 169)

Okay, I understand. Not all people are the inmates of the Ark of God. I need to re-evaluate, but I think you are probably right.

 

[Truthseeker]

Things were bad when Baha'u'llah came... but then things got worse. And then he died. And things got even worse.

The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 118)

 

[ppp]

Though there is an us vs them, in truth, God built unity and oneness into the matrix, the lack of this unity and oneness is the result of our choices. Faith has more to consider than just yes and no.

One has to read the many explanations on this topic. I can only make my choices, no one else's.

Regards Tony

Why should I consider your choices to be sound?

 

[Niatero]

My very basic foundation view regardless of belief is a Universalist Philosophy (Not UU). Some the basics of my philosophy are:

(1) Science is a reliable consistent evolving knowledge of our physical existence, nothingmore.
(2) Limited fallible nature of humanity dominates our history, present and future.
(3) I am skeptical of all subjective religions and religious beliefs including my own.
(4) From the perspective of the contemporary world. I believe the only possible existence of God is a Universal Source some call Gods.
(5) Ancient religions identify with the ancient culture of their origin. and I have to consider them in that context.
(6) the dominance of our inherited tribal nature may be Achilles Heal and the means of our end unless we can change and embrace the greater universal.

Is there a school of thought called "Universalist Philosophy" that includes those ideas?

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, I understand. Not all people are the inmates of the Ark of God. I need to re-evaluate, but I think you are probably right.

Inmates? I'm am not sure I want to be an inmate, sounds like being a prisoner in some Ark.

 

[Truthseeker]

Is this true? The Baha'i dominance and inequality of the sexes?

Not really. From my own vantage point as a Baha'i, I expect freedom from trampling on people's rights when the Baha'is at some indefinite time become the majority in a country. As far as no women on the Universal House of Justice goes, we have no explanation of why that is so, but there are plenty of women on the National Spiritual Assemblies, on Local Spiritual Assemblies, on the International Teaching Center, and institutions of the learned below that level. We don't believe that the Universal House of Justice will be unjust to women in their decisions because (and this belief requires faith in Baha'u'llah) they are inspired by God.

 

[danieldemol]

For me it is not "my way or the highway" and the same is true for just about every Baha'i I know.

Then you dont know @TransmutingSoul very well, he has said in this very thread that unity can only come about through obedience to Baha'i law.

Or did you mean to say Tony is the exception to the rule?

 

[danieldemol]

This is from the Baha'i reference library;

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded"

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 286-287

Since the "Pen of the Most High" is a reference to Baha'u'llah it looks like Baha'u'llah had the "my way or the highway" approach to unity and religion, so it would hardly be surprising to find Baha'i taking this approach. If anything it would be surprising to find that they generally don't take the approach advocated by their founder Baha'u'llah in my view.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue.

My world is nothing like that except for the unbelief part, but that's a good thing when it comes to false and unfalsifiable beliefs. Your sect has this pervasive pessimism like the Jehovah's Witnesses do. They also proselytize with the "world is going to hell in a basket" meme.

I expect freedom from trampling on people's rights when the Baha'is at some indefinite time become the majority in a country

The Baha'i would define those rights. I would expect an oppressive, theocratic state.

 

[Vinayaka]

They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 169)

Another insult. 'They that are of a lower grade" means all the non-Baha'i. Earlier I was compiling a list of insults to non-Baha'i usually spoken by Baha'u'llah himself. It included blind, deaf, diseased, and more, but I lost track. In summary, "If you don't follow and listen to me, you're an idiot, diseased, unworthy, etc," Now that is sure going to promote a lot of unity. (s) Keep insulting everyone who questions.

 

[Spice]

That exactly how most Baha'is look at it. Unity in diversity, including in opinions and beliefs. I also re-evaluate my thinking all the time.

I'm glad to see you stipulate "most Baha'is" as it seems, as with all religions, that some hold to more restrictions. My original understanding was Bahai was an added theology, not a replacement, and as an addition it would not negate but enhance. The same as "many" Christians see the NT as addition, not replacement to the Hebrew scripture.

 

[Niatero]

I'm glad to see you stipulate "most Baha'is" as it seems, as with all religions, that some hold to more restrictions. My original understanding was Bahai was an added theology, not a replacement, and as an addition it would not negate but enhance. The same as "many" Christians see the NT as addition, not replacement to the Hebrew scripture.

The Baha'i Faith is not a belief system. There is no creed, no belief requirements for membership. Just like with other religions, if you want to know anything about the offline Baha'i community, you won't learn anything about it from people promoting their personal opinions online and calling them "Baha'i beliefs," or from the people pushing their buttons.

 

[Spice]

The Baha'i Faith is not a belief system. There is no creed, no belief requirements for membership.

Many Protestant Christians have/accept no creed, and welcome any who ask, however they are united in a belief in Jesus Christ, though how they see him still varies. My understanding is that Baha'i is much the same. They are united in their belief of Bahá’u’lláh's teaching. And until I came back to RF recently had never heard that Baha'is believe Bahá’u’lláh as the second coming of Christ. I was led to believe he was more a Moses or Mohammad like prophet, as many think of Jesus.

 

[Niatero]

My understanding is that Baha'i is much the same. They are united in their belief of Bahá’u’lláh's teaching.

They are united in not organizing campaigns of intimidation against their institutions to try to get them to do what they want, and not using disagreements about what to believe as excuses for splitting apart.

And until I came back to RF recently had never heard that Baha'is believe Bahá’u’lláh as the second coming of Christ.

Some do and some don't. Like I said, If you have any interest at all in knowing anything about the offline Baha'i community, you won't learn it from people promoting their "Baha'i beliefs" online, or people pushing their buttons and barking at their feet.

I was led to believe he was more a Moses or Mohammad like prophet, as many think of Jesus.

He probably is in the minds of some members. Anything you can think of to believe, there are probably Baha'is who believe it. There is no belief test for membership.

 

[Spice]

They are united in not organizing campaigns of intimidation against their institutions to try to get them to do what they want.

I'm totally lost in what you're referring to here. Who are "organizing campaigns of intimidation against their institutions" that you're comparing Baha'is with?

 

[Niatero]

I'm totally lost in what you're referring to here. Who are "organizing campaigns of intimidation against their institutions" that you're comparing Baha'is with?

Sorry, my mistake. I crossed that out.